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  1. #31
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    What you are talking about is an extension of group selection. However unlike with family, it is weak enough that you generally don't identify with your ethnicity let alone race except when comparing yourself with somebody different. The "problem" (I don't see it as a problem tbh) is that people are primed to recognize who is similar and different to them.

    Pretty much every ethnic group you can think of has been subjugated by another ethnic group at some point in time, sometimes for many centuries. Nationalism provides a way to regather and create a future where you aren't governed by people you can't relate to. It is a basic instinct to want to be able to relate to and respect your leaders. It is much harder to do that if they don't share kinship with you, because their interests will not the the same. Group identity as a member of a majority benefits the majority. I am a member of a majority (at the moment!) and it makes sense for me to be concerned about encouraging group consciousness as this increases our political dominance. The struggles of rival groups I can only sympathise with if they don't threaten the power of my people.

    Our ability to discern difference is the issue. But I don't view this as a problem, simply a reality that needs to be considered when making decisions about society.
    The assertion of power by one ethnic group (usually the native or even, though less likely, the invader) onto other ethnic groups is undoubtedly the source of the problem, which is a problem not isolated to mere physiological distinctions but the result of physiological distinctions, in the first place, however. The problem itself lies in the economic subjugation seen in minorities or ethnic groups not in power, for the native ethnic group will generally occupy the higher economic classes. This economic subjugation leads to more unity inside the group, as I said formerly, which in turn leads to the adoption of political ideologies not standard of individuals within the group and their personal opinions but the collective of the group, for the individuals cannot afford to separate themselves from the collective ethnic group, as that would mean ensured political victory by the majority ethnic group.

    The imposition of power by the majority ethnic group (or simply the ruling ethnic group) is the direct cause of political discord, as it forces individuals within other ethnic groups to follow suit and band together politically. Furthermore, in situations where a dogma (usually religious) is adopted by an ethnic group, such as the Sunni Muslims we now see rising in Iraq against the Shia Muslims that are in control of the nation, one ethnic group seeks to assert power and authority over another, which was directly caused by the Shia Muslim Government's imposition of power onto the Sunni Muslims in the first place. Ergo, the imposition of power of a majority ethnic group onto another ethnic group is the cause of intrastate turmoil. In nations where dogma isn't applied or persecution isn't an instrument of the state, this manifests itself through the imposition of economic power of one ethnic group onto another.

    I'm not discrediting the solution of removing ethnic groups to solve the issue (though it would displace the poor souls who were born into a nation while simultaneously being born into an ethnic group that is confined due to ethnic-economic instability), but I am stating that the cause of the problems we see in today's claimed heterogeneous societies are the results of ethnic favoritism. There are many feasible solutions for the issue, but they do not usually agree.

    By the way, apologies for the time this response took. My left earbud died and set me on the course to finding another pair of earphones, which then led me to realize that the other pair of earphones has a dead right earbud, so I am now listening to music through two different earphones via a splitter.

  2. #32
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    What you are talking about is an extension of group selection. However unlike with family, it is weak enough that you generally don't identify with your ethnicity let alone race except when comparing yourself with somebody different. The "problem" (I don't see it as a problem tbh) is that people are primed to recognize who is similar and different to them.
    The problem is that people don't recognize that EVERYONE is both similar to and different from themselves. They see someone who superficially looks like them, perhaps comes from the same ethnic background, and assume some inherent kinship. This may give them some immediate basis for smalltalk, but once the hidden differences surface, it often becomes quite plain how different and perhaps even incompatible they are. On the other hand, I have friends with different skin color, who grew up on the other side of the world, in a different culture and religion, but as we got to know each other, we realized how much we had in common.

    Through the time I was your age (and well after), I was surrounded mostly by people quite similar to me in the measures that you seem to value, yet I felt out of step, like an outsider. Every so often, though, I run into someone who is on the same wavelength with me; someone I can share my inner self with; someone who values what I value. When that happens, I really don't care what their race, class, ethnic group or even gender is. I'm just happy to have found a friend. I'm surprised as an INTJ you have not yet experienced this reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Pretty much every ethnic group you can think of has been subjugated by another ethnic group at some point in time, sometimes for many centuries. Nationalism provides a way to regather and create a future where you aren't governed by people you can't relate to. It is a basic instinct to want to be able to relate to and respect your leaders. It is much harder to do that if they don't share kinship with you, because their interests will not the the same. Group identity as a member of a majority benefits the majority. I am a member of a majority (at the moment!) and it makes sense for me to be concerned about encouraging group consciousness as this increases our political dominance. The struggles of rival groups I can only sympathise with if they don't threaten the power of my people.
    Well, my interests overlap poorly with many people in my own ethnic group. I get my group identity from my profession, my educational background, my spirituality, and my avocations/hobbies. Association by ethnicity may have made sense when most people never went beyond the next village, but modern communication and transportation allow us to broaden our horizons, and form voluntary associations on the basis of other, often deeper, qualities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    However, I am against ethnically heterogeneous societies. I have given my reasons for this many times before. If you haven't accepted them by now, you won't ever from me. I am convinced that most people will only come to these conclusions through experience.
    What in your experience has made you convinced of this position? I have much more experience than you, and have yet to see anything which would justify it; in fact, quite the contrary.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #33
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    I'm getting too tired to talk about anything serious unfortunately (usually happens progressively from 6pm). *yawn*

    Will reply tomorrow.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I am quite formal IRL, and stricter social norms than there are now wouldn't worry me, I like structure, it is comforting. [...] Ideally, I would like to be able to just get on with my life, go get laid and stop thinking about all this shit.
    I take it you recognize that 'all this shit' holds you captive because you try to compensate your personal, individual shortcomings (being extremely introverted and cripplingly shy, not to mention unwarrantedly vain) by trying to change the world instead of trying to become an adult. I take it you have also begun to sense that you bring this shit to us, defending it in public, to convince yourself that it has objective merit, that it is not merely your personal crutch. What you must realize, however, is that changing the world is far more difficult than changing yourself. More importantly, though, it is also less effective, because even in your conservative utopia, you would still be awkward and shy while all those who outdo you now would still outdo you then.

    The solution to your problems is to shift the focus from the world to yourself.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    The assertion of power by one ethnic group (usually the native or even, though less likely, the invader) onto other ethnic groups is undoubtedly the source of the problem, which is a problem not isolated to mere physiological distinctions but the result of physiological distinctions, in the first place, however. The problem itself lies in the economic subjugation seen in minorities or ethnic groups not in power, for the native ethnic group will generally occupy the higher economic classes. This economic subjugation leads to more unity inside the group, as I said formerly, which in turn leads to the adoption of political ideologies not standard of individuals within the group and their personal opinions but the collective of the group, for the individuals cannot afford to separate themselves from the collective ethnic group, as that would mean ensured political victory by the majority ethnic group.

    The imposition of power by the majority ethnic group (or simply the ruling ethnic group) is the direct cause of political discord, as it forces individuals within other ethnic groups to follow suit and band together politically. Furthermore, in situations where a dogma (usually religious) is adopted by an ethnic group, such as the Sunni Muslims we now see rising in Iraq against the Shia Muslims that are in control of the nation, one ethnic group seeks to assert power and authority over another, which was directly caused by the Shia Muslim Government's imposition of power onto the Sunni Muslims in the first place. Ergo, the imposition of power of a majority ethnic group onto another ethnic group is the cause of intrastate turmoil. In nations where dogma isn't applied or persecution isn't an instrument of the state, this manifests itself through the imposition of economic power of one ethnic group onto another.

    I'm not discrediting the solution of removing ethnic groups to solve the issue (though it would displace the poor souls who were born into a nation while simultaneously being born into an ethnic group that is confined due to ethnic-economic instability), but I am stating that the cause of the problems we see in today's claimed heterogeneous societies are the results of ethnic favoritism. There are many feasible solutions for the issue, but they do not usually agree.

    By the way, apologies for the time this response took. My left earbud died and set me on the course to finding another pair of earphones, which then led me to realize that the other pair of earphones has a dead right earbud, so I am now listening to music through two different earphones via a splitter.
    I have read, and re-read your post more than once, and I can't pin down what you are really trying to point out which we haven't already gone over.

    As I have tried to explain, ethnic favoritism, as you call it, is real, but it isn't some social construct created by evil white men. People everywhere just naturally recognise difference and make judgements based on it, especially in times of stress when we tend to revert to more simple ways of organising ourselves. You are mixing up cause and effect a lot here. Internal strife leads to a revival in group consciousness and people banding together along ethnic lines, not the other way around. This is why nationalist groups have traditionally gained support in the aftermath of recessions and wars. It is difficult to encourage people to accept a radical worldview when they have a comfortable lifestyle.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The problem is that people don't recognize that EVERYONE is both similar to and different from themselves. They see someone who superficially looks like them, perhaps comes from the same ethnic background, and assume some inherent kinship. This may give them some immediate basis for smalltalk, but once the hidden differences surface, it often becomes quite plain how different and perhaps even incompatible they are. On the other hand, I have friends with different skin color, who grew up on the other side of the world, in a different culture and religion, but as we got to know each other, we realized how much we had in common.
    I see it as varying levels of kinship. My strongest level of kinship is with my family, and I based pretty much all my decisions in life around what is going to benefit me and my family the most. Your ethnic group is kind of like an extended extended family. Generally, you don't need your ethnic group, so simply notice that they are more similar to you than others, but your connection to them as opposed to others becomes very important when things get rough. Just the way you are thinking shows how our mentalities are very different. You are approaching this with an everyday conversation in mind. I am thinking about the past and future - who will have my back when the chips are down, and who will be fighting me?

    The answers can be surprising to someone with an egalitarian outlook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Through the time I was your age (and well after), I was surrounded mostly by people quite similar to me in the measures that you seem to value, yet I felt out of step, like an outsider. Every so often, though, I run into someone who is on the same wavelength with me; someone I can share my inner self with; someone who values what I value. When that happens, I really don't care what their race, class, ethnic group or even gender is. I'm just happy to have found a friend. I'm surprised as an INTJ you have not yet experienced this reality.
    I have actually been exposed to a large range of people due to my travel experiences, but while i have found their way of living interesting as a result of being different, I have never connected with any of them personally. Running into someone similar to me has been difficult, due to the confusing nature of my personality, but the nearest I have got to it is with my best friend who I met online early last year. I am happy to have been able to make a few friends, but it would be great if they were closer to home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Well, my interests overlap poorly with many people in my own ethnic group. I get my group identity from my profession, my educational background, my spirituality, and my avocations/hobbies. Association by ethnicity may have made sense when most people never went beyond the next village, but modern communication and transportation allow us to broaden our horizons, and form voluntary associations on the basis of other, often deeper, qualities.
    I don't actually think about group identity much - I more compare everyone else and everything to me, and what makes sense to me. Basically I am a dot at the center of the universe and everything I encounter gets compared and contrasted. So naturally I am attuned to picking up differences that most people would overlook. Group identity by ethnicity, as I said, is important to me mainly because it's a constant battle containing my dislike of interracial and subracial relationships, they sicken me to the bone, I just can't not let that out or i won't get any sleep. And as I told you, I don't want my family and our descendants to become a minority, and I'm unconvinced that any ideology you support will be able to ensure that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What in your experience has made you convinced of this position? I have much more experience than you, and have yet to see anything which would justify it; in fact, quite the contrary.
    There isn't one specific event that was a genesis for my views. I have just watched trends over time, and did a lot of reading around European history which gave me an additional framework and perspective to my travel (at the moment I'm just starting to read about the Byzantine Empire, actually). If there was an "event" that prodded me along though, it would've been coming into contact with a guy on Youtube in 2011 while i was on there, he was a libertarian and pro diversity. I befriended him, but after seeing his arguments in a "debate" on a thread there I realised after thinking through them that he was full of it, and this then made me suspicious of him as a person - I wondered what his motivations were (it turned out that he was pretty screwed up, but that's another story). Probably combined with my irritation at and contempt for the politically correct "English" course of my senior year - there was a quota of minority writers we had to look at, and Shakespeare was derided - this set me off.

    I went through a number of ideological "transformations" as I learned more about the political right, and eventually nationalism, through reading and interacting with people online. By mid last year I had assembled a few core views and that's where I'm at now really...

  7. #37
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I have read, and re-read your post more than once, and I can't pin down what you are really trying to point out which we haven't already gone over.

    As I have tried to explain, ethnic favoritism, as you call it, is real, but it isn't some social construct created by evil white men. People everywhere just naturally recognise difference and make judgements based on it, especially in times of stress when we tend to revert to more simple ways of organising ourselves. You are mixing up cause and effect a lot here. Internal strife leads to a revival in group consciousness and people banding together along ethnic lines, not the other way around. This is why nationalist groups have traditionally gained support in the aftermath of recessions and wars. It is difficult to encourage people to accept a radical worldview when they have a comfortable lifestyle.

    1. Ethnic favoritism/Ethnic allegiance isn't always the result of White men, but is the result of Xenophobia, Persecution/Nativism, and Economic Superiority (perpetuated by economic opportunities being more open to the native group) on the part of the native ethnic group that holds the majority of Political Power. This, in turn, causes unrest in the minorities and non ruling ethnic groups, as their political power is muted by the majorities's voice due to its relative political and economic power. Therefore, to have any chance in having their vote or say matter, the minorities and other ethnic groups tend to cast their votes according to how their own ethnic group thinks will benefit them politically so that they can either rise to power or pull themselves up from an economic disadvantage. In the United States, Hispanic and Black Americans often align themselves with the Democratic Party, which is generally aimed at helping the lower economic classes rather than relying on other forms of indirect relief such as the "Trickle-Down Method" (which already contains a large portion of the White American population). In Iraq, the minority Sunni Muslim group has supported the ISIL forces, which seek to rid the Shia favored government for the benefit of the Sunni, whereas the Shia Muslims in power have supported the Islamic Dawa Party, as it is Shia-favoring.

    2. The ulterior point here then, is that Nationalism and Ethnic alliegance/favoritism is the reason why societies aren't as heterogeneous as they could be (hence causing intra-ethnic group political discord seen in several nations today), that, in combination with governments that are too powerful that happen to be controlled by a majority of the native ethnic group; governments where, if your people's voice isn't heard, the ruling ethnic group can make any laws it choose to based on a majority advantage, possibly putting your ethnic group at an economic disadvantage or worse.

    3.
    Internal strife leads to a revival in group consciousness and people banding together along ethnic lines, not the other way around.
    This usually occurs in the dominant ethnic group, however, as in cases like the end of WWI, where American Whites began to build a sense of national pride and even ethnic pride (for the WASPs, usually), which not only unifies the majority ethnic group more strongly, but also builds a sense of superiority over foreigners or those who were even natively born in the United States (or nation at hand) but have characteristics associated with a different ethnic group. This creates an "us vs them" mentality, where individuals outside the lauded ethnic group are seen as threats, with the most usual occurrence being economic competition for mostly low-paying jobs, where immigrants and the poor of other ethnic groups are willing to work for extremely low wages simply because of their own low, economic status and the fact that most occupations in the United States (as this will be my primary example) favored White Americans (as a manifestation of ethnic nationalism/favoritism), meaning that they would have to scrounge for and deal with the conditions for any available job they could get their hands on. This, then, perpetuated the association of specific ethnic groups to the bottom tiers of the economic hierarchy, and also formed a feeling of resentment from the native ethnic group due to the fact that the other ethnic workers were taking jobs out from under them, all due to the Nationalism of American Whites.

  8. #38
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I see it as varying levels of kinship. My strongest level of kinship is with my family, and I based pretty much all my decisions in life around what is going to benefit me and my family the most. Your ethnic group is kind of like an extended extended family. Generally, you don't need your ethnic group, so simply notice that they are more similar to you than others, but your connection to them as opposed to others becomes very important when things get rough. Just the way you are thinking shows how our mentalities are very different. You are approaching this with an everyday conversation in mind. I am thinking about the past and future - who will have my back when the chips are down, and who will be fighting me?
    In my experience, when push has come to shove, my family has not had my back. They have not fought me either, but have just carried on, worrying about themselves, and leaving me to do the same. In fact, they have not banded together in any coherent fashion. OTOH, I know the people in my life now who would back me up, and I them. Some come from backgrounds similar to mine; others from quite different. We are bound not by ethnicity but by similar goals and values, and the knowledge that we can work together to accomplish goals.

    As for my ethnic group being similar to me, so far, that similarity has been mostly skin deep. All of the people in my life who have taken a severe dislike to me or been out to get me in some way have been similar to me in this respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Group identity by ethnicity, as I said, is important to me mainly because it's a constant battle containing my dislike of interracial and subracial relationships, they sicken me to the bone, I just can't not let that out or i won't get any sleep. And as I told you, I don't want my family and our descendants to become a minority, and I'm unconvinced that any ideology you support will be able to ensure that.
    To what do you trace your dislike of interracial relationships? The reading you describe below? Have you had bad experiences with people in interracial relationships/families that expose inherent problems of these relationships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    There isn't one specific event that was a genesis for my views. I have just watched trends over time, and did a lot of reading around European history which gave me an additional framework and perspective to my travel (at the moment I'm just starting to read about the Byzantine Empire, actually).
    An understanding of history is invaluable for understanding and navigating the present and future. We do best by learning from the past, though, not repeating it. Imagine if our medical professionals took a similar view. They would still be bleeding people with leeches and dispensing amulets and incantations, rather than saving lives and limbs through modern diagnostics and surgery. We would not be having this discussion right now, because there would be no internet or computers. Transportation would be too primitive to support a meetup, much less an exploration of the moon. People really would believe the earth is 6000 years old and a host of other religious claims about nature, since no one would see the need to progress beyond these traditional explanations.

    In short, the world cannot be, should not be, and already isn't the same as it was even 100 years ago. Some people deride this "progress" as causing as many problems as it solves, and they have a point in that many of these developments are double-edged swords, as most tools are. They can be used for good or for ill.

    In the latest gun thread, you mentioned that the problem wasn't guns, it was people. I tend to agree, and would apply the same reasoning here. You have some well-reasoned and legitimate complaints about modern society, but it is the individuals who take things too far and misuse the freedoms and resources now available who are to blame, not those freedoms and resources themselves. I would still rather have that sword and learn to use it, even though I realize I might some day be cut by it instead.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In my experience, when push has come to shove, my family has not had my back. They have not fought me either, but have just carried on, worrying about themselves, and leaving me to do the same. In fact, they have not banded together in any coherent fashion. OTOH, I know the people in my life now who would back me up, and I them. Some come from backgrounds similar to mine; others from quite different. We are bound not by ethnicity but by similar goals and values, and the knowledge that we can work together to accomplish goals.

    As for my ethnic group being similar to me, so far, that similarity has been mostly skin deep. All of the people in my life who have taken a severe dislike to me or been out to get me in some way have been similar to me in this respect.
    My family is pretty mixed, but despite our arguments and difficulty understanding each other (N-S barrier), I feel lucky to have the parents I do. My grandparents are great fun too, and my dad's brother. If anything seriously bad happened to me, they would be there to defend me, and haven't complained about supporting me financially. Even though I don't express it, these things weigh on my mind a lot. I have found people who are ethnically the same or similar to me to be the most friendly and honest. My conclusion from the above is that we recognise something of ourselves in each other, so trust each other more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    To what do you trace your dislike of interracial relationships? The reading you describe below? Have you had bad experiences with people in interracial relationships/families that expose inherent problems of these relationships?
    Two of my female cousins have been in such "relationships" (if you can call them that). Both of them were abused, introduced to drugs and one is still being gangbanged in Africa. My grandfather is trying to get her back but we don't really know where she is. As well as that, all the interracial couples have been exposed to are now divorced. Due to my family's situation, all of these people were upper middle class or higher and well educated - yet they found the racial barrier too much of a struggle. In addition, their children suffer from identity crises and are not succeeding to the level of their parents in life.

    Then of course, there are all my readings on top of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    An understanding of history is invaluable for understanding and navigating the present and future. We do best by learning from the past, though, not repeating it. Imagine if our medical professionals took a similar view. They would still be bleeding people with leeches and dispensing amulets and incantations, rather than saving lives and limbs through modern diagnostics and surgery. We would not be having this discussion right now, because there would be no internet or computers. Transportation would be too primitive to support a meetup, much less an exploration of the moon. People really would believe the earth is 6000 years old and a host of other religious claims about nature, since no one would see the need to progress beyond these traditional explanations.

    In short, the world cannot be, should not be, and already isn't the same as it was even 100 years ago. Some people deride this "progress" as causing as many problems as it solves, and they have a point in that many of these developments are double-edged swords, as most tools are. They can be used for good or for ill.
    I have never suggested that the world should be the same as it was 100 years ago. But I don't believe in change for the sake of change, like you seem to. I believe in creating a society that is stable, and history, along with my own experience, tells me without exception that pushing disparate peoples into the same environment is a bad idea. Why, oh why, is there so much resistance to accepting this? We don't have to go back to absolute monarchies and the feudal system. But it is beyond dispute that our current society is a failure, and that multiculturalism is a part of the problem...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In the latest gun thread, you mentioned that the problem wasn't guns, it was people. I tend to agree, and would apply the same reasoning here. You have some well-reasoned and legitimate complaints about modern society, but it is the individuals who take things too far and misuse the freedoms and resources now available who are to blame, not those freedoms and resources themselves. I would still rather have that sword and learn to use it, even though I realize I might some day be cut by it instead.
    The answer is the same: to remove the individuals causing the problem. In this case, the answer is to remove the diversity.

    In order to better ensure that the same mistakes do not happen again, I would also recommend changing the form of government.

  10. #40
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Two of my female cousins have been in such "relationships" (if you can call them that). Both of them were abused, introduced to drugs and one is still being gangbanged in Africa. My grandfather is trying to get her back but we don't really know where she is. As well as that, all the interracial couples have been exposed to are now divorced. Due to my family's situation, all of these people were upper middle class or higher and well educated - yet they found the racial barrier too much of a struggle. In addition, their children suffer from identity crises and are not succeeding to the level of their parents in life.
    I have known several interracial families, and none have resulted in divorce, abuse, or other untoward behavior. As just one example, the sister of one of my best friends (typical WASP) married a black African just after college. She moved to Tanzania with him where they raised a family, and she worked as a schoolteacher and later headmistress. They have been together for decades and are still doing well, as her mostly annual visits to her sister in the U.S. attest, accompanied now by children and grandchildren.

    Still, all either of us has is our personal anecdotes. Statistics do show, for instance, higher divorce rates for interracial couples. I suspect much of that comes from artificial, externally imposed pressures like social ostracism or even outright discrimination. This goes away when people around are accepting rather than judgmental.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I have never suggested that the world should be the same as it was 100 years ago. But I don't believe in change for the sake of change, like you seem to. I believe in creating a society that is stable, and history, along with my own experience, tells me without exception that pushing disparate peoples into the same environment is a bad idea. Why, oh why, is there so much resistance to accepting this? We don't have to go back to absolute monarchies and the feudal system. But it is beyond dispute that our current society is a failure, and that multiculturalism is a part of the problem...
    None of this is beyond dispute; far from it. Your interpretation is just one among many, and seems to ignore key pieces of information. Furthermore, I'm not sure where you are seeing "change for the sake of change" in my comments, such as this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There is nothing wrong with finding value in the customs or practices of other times and places, but one needs to pick and choose, taking the best while learning from the shortcomings. I do this myself.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Last Post: 05-01-2008, 03:02 PM
  5. Anyone else find the news media annoying?
    By The_Liquid_Laser in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-06-2008, 12:53 AM

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