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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I disagree.

    Then you are no less a fascist autocrat than SilentMusings would advocate for. Guess we'd better laugh at you and shut you up too.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    Then you are no less a fascist autocrat than SilentMusings would advocate for.
    Nonsense. I would not mind being an autocrat, though.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    I've made a grand total of zero comments on your appearance. You might be confusing me with several other members.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I am not sure what you mean by "chauvinism".
    ?? I would expect you to have some idea since they were your own words.


    Calling me an elitist is just another slur.


    Really. No matter how you want to spin it, "elitist" is hardly on par with a word that makes a person a piece of burning material.

    Do you ever hiss "elitist" to feel the same synthetic boost in power and masculinity as you presumably did when dropping the actual slur in your post? Has anyone ever spat it as they tried to assault you or deny you civil liberties?


    Give me a reason why I should care what "the opposing side" thinks when your model for running society is not working. As your model has failed, it needs to be replaced before the damage cannot be undone.
    This insistence on assigning a face to the abstract will always, always deliver. From "opposing schools of thought" to "your model". I'm not sure where to begin.

    For starters, an attack against a body of ideas is more effective when the attacker has a few of his own about what exactly he is attacking. Several times now, you have made claims about the enormous topic of feminism especially, your favorite whipping boy, that are simply untrue and border on sensational. Unless intellectual dishonesty is secretly bringing out the color of your eyes, surfing fear-mongering outlets with clear agendas is hardly "intellectual effort". Not a good look. You would have me believe you are simply letting a different type of media think for you.


    You call me insensitive, but you make no effort to see things from a male perspective, either.
    There is a melting pot of male perspective in all shades of class, generation, race, nationality, orientation, and hormonal composition. Yours is emphatically not the end-all male perspective; and the fact that your gripes center around finding a submissive future wife - in your late teens to early 20s, no less - more than guarding against rape or poverty or brutality or true psychological emasculation speaks volumes about your relative privilege by comparison.

    I'm allowed to do that thing you did in the rape culture thread, where I shift the context and scoff that you need to get some perspective - right?

    Why you so lament today's status-obsessed male social hierarchy and yet idealize that of even less forgiving Victorian England's is beyond me, but it's not my desire to request an explanation.

    By all accounts, the women who are looking for men with resources are still faithfully flocking to men with resources.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    This insistence on assigning a face to the abstract will always, always deliver. From "opposing schools of thought" to "your model". I'm not sure where to begin.

    For starters, an attack against a body of ideas is more effective when the attacker has a few of his own about what exactly he is attacking. Several times now, you have made claims about the enormous topic of feminism especially, your favorite whipping boy, that are simply untrue and border on sensational. Unless intellectual dishonesty is secretly bringing out the color of your eyes, surfing fear-mongering outlets with clear agendas is hardly "intellectual effort". Not a good look. You would have me believe you are simply letting a different type of media think for you.
    I am addressing you, your beliefs and values. It would, therefore, make sense for the word "you" to appear quite often in my posts.

    So I have made a number of claims about feminism that are untrue. Such as....?

    As I explained quite clearly to you before, it is impossible to come to a view like mine just taking in sensory data. You have to do some thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    There is a melting pot of male perspective in all shades of class, generation, race, nationality, orientation, and hormonal composition. Yours is emphatically not the end-all male perspective; and the fact that your gripes center around finding a submissive future wife - in your late teens to early 20s, no less - more than guarding against rape or poverty or brutality or true psychological emasculation speaks volumes about your relative privilege by comparison.

    I'm allowed to do that thing you did in the rape culture thread, where I shift the context and scoff that you need to get some perspective - right?

    Why you so lament today's status-obsessed male social hierarchy and yet idealize that of even less forgiving Victorian England's is beyond me, but it's not my desire to request an explanation.

    By all accounts, the women who are looking for men with resources are still faithfully flocking to men with resources.
    I am attracted to girls who are friendly, don't bitch and argue, can connect to me intellectually and emotionally, and aren't feminists. Read that previous sentence out to any man you come across; I guarantee that the majority will agree with it.

    You seem to be fixated by class differences as well, as if there is something fundamentally evil about them. I don't want to talk about money though...it feels it bit awkward. It has zero relevance in creating my identity anyway (save the family history which I'm proud of, but would just anger you more).

    Today's social hierarchy is based on social status, especially at my age. I am extremely introverted and shy socially, which overrides all the privilege you are whining about. I know from reading that 100 years ago there was more artistic freedom, room for creativity and individuality, than there is now. And of course, women were women. There was a lot less sleeping around simply because of the risk of getting pregnant. So as I mentioned to @Coriolis on that thread, my nostalgia for the past is based largely on my feeling that I would fit in better in an earlier time.

  5. #25
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Ethnicity is more important to me than class. All I am saying is that it is not practically possible to create a classless society because peoples' innate abilities differ. In other words, biology makes equality impossible.
    There are far greater determinants of individual differences than either class or ethnicity. Of the two, class probably has the stronger influence, since poor people of any ethnicity often lack proper nutrition and medical care, which can have lifelong consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Equality is impossible without forcibly removing the biological differences that exist. This is the real reason why far left lunatics like you support the abolition of ethnicity. It is a wall standing in the way of your utopia.
    You are misunderstanding the nature of equality in these discussions. It does not mean making everyone identical. People will never have equal abilities or characteristics due to our many innate differences, some of which you mention. The equality that is both possible and desirable is equality of opportunity, so the limitations and advantages each of us goes through life with come from the reality of who we are, not some externally imposed requirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I support a system which I have reason to believe will be stable. My primary interest is ensuring that I and my family will have a future where we will not be a hated minority.
    This is best ensured in a society where no minority is hated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Today's social hierarchy is based on social status, especially at my age. I am extremely introverted and shy socially, which overrides all the privilege you are whining about. I know from reading that 100 years ago there was more artistic freedom, room for creativity and individuality, than there is now. And of course, women were women. There was a lot less sleeping around simply because of the risk of getting pregnant. So as I mentioned to @Coriolis on that thread, my nostalgia for the past is based largely on my feeling that I would fit in better in an earlier time.
    You are seeing this past through rose colored glasses. Social norms were much stricter and more all-encompassing, leading to less room for individuality, even for men. Lack of modern conveniences meant less time for artistic and creative pursuits, unless you were wealthy. And I'm not sure there was less sleeping around, at least for men. They just visited brothels instead of having serial girlfriends.

    There is nothing wrong with finding value in the customs or practices of other times and places, but one needs to pick and choose, taking the best while learning from the shortcomings. I do this myself. You would do better to keep this issue personal, and focus on yourself and your preferences rather than expecting the world to conform to your ideal. If you don't like "sleeping around", don't do it, and don't date women who do. If you value individuality and creativity, stop following the crowd, without expecting it to suddenly follow you. If you don't want to be hated, don't hate, and teach any children you have not to hate. Satisfy your desire for others to depend on you through your job, or just by being helpful. You may find that being valued by a mate who wants you rather than needs you is even more gratifying.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There are far greater determinants of individual differences than either class or ethnicity. Of the two, class probably has the stronger influence, since poor people of any ethnicity often lack proper nutrition and medical care, which can have lifelong consequences.
    Sure, there is variation within any given group as well as between them. But both are important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are misunderstanding the nature of equality in these discussions. It does not mean making everyone identical. People will never have equal abilities or characteristics due to our many innate differences, some of which you mention. The equality that is both possible and desirable is equality of opportunity, so the limitations and advantages each of us goes through life with come from the reality of who we are, not some externally imposed requirement.
    There is no misunderstanding, and here's why: if all this was about was equality of opportunity, there wouldn't be a push to remove ethnic differences altogether (which has been expressed by a couple of people in this thread). I accept that we should make efforts to give people equal opportunities within a country. Contrary to what many may believe, don't believe that simply because class is real that we should exacerbate the differences.

    However, I am against ethnically heterogeneous societies. I have given my reasons for this many times before. If you haven't accepted them by now, you won't ever from me. I am convinced that most people will only come to these conclusions through experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is best ensured in a society where no minority is hated.
    Surely you are not so naive to believe white people would be treated well as a minority in America. Just look as South Africa today as proof. Safety is best ensured in a country with only one ethnic group, or if there are minorities, they form a very small proportion of the population. This prevents a struggle for dominance. And this logic applies to every ethnic group in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are seeing this past through rose colored glasses. Social norms were much stricter and more all-encompassing, leading to less room for individuality, even for men. Lack of modern conveniences meant less time for artistic and creative pursuits, unless you were wealthy. And I'm not sure there was less sleeping around, at least for men. They just visited brothels instead of having serial girlfriends.

    There is nothing wrong with finding value in the customs or practices of other times and places, but one needs to pick and choose, taking the best while learning from the shortcomings. I do this myself. You would do better to keep this issue personal, and focus on yourself and your preferences rather than expecting the world to conform to your ideal. If you don't like "sleeping around", don't do it, and don't date women who do. If you value individuality and creativity, stop following the crowd, without expecting it to suddenly follow you. If you don't want to be hated, don't hate, and teach any children you have not to hate. Satisfy your desire for others to depend on you through your job, or just by being helpful. You may find that being valued by a mate who wants you rather than needs you is even more gratifying.
    I am quite formal IRL, and stricter social norms than there are now wouldn't worry me, I like structure, it is comforting. Of course, I prefer to create my own structure than have someone else do it for me. What I was really talking about more was artistic and ideological conformity being lower than now - these things are quite important to me.

    Ideally, I would like to be able to just get on with my life, go get laid and stop thinking about all this shit. But I don't see any reason to believe that my environment is going to be as secure, or more so, in the long term, so I feel an urge to do something.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    @SilentMusings

    Would it not be reasonable to argue that the problems associated with heterogeneous civilizations are, in fact, caused by the very force that seeks to compartmentalize ethnic groups in the first place to solve these ailments of society?

    Nationalism fuels its own justification. Ethnic Nationalism and Nativism doubly so.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    @SilentMusings

    Would it not be reasonable to argue that the problems associated with heterogeneous civilizations are, in fact, caused by the very force that seeks to compartmentalize ethnic groups in the first place to solve these ailments of society?

    Nationalism fuels its own justification. Ethnic Nationalism and Nativism doubly so.
    I disagree. I am yet to see any real arguments for ethnic diversity making a society more stable and powerful. There is a repeated pattern of conflict whenever two disparate groups are put in the same place and one group does not significantly outnumber the other.

    National Socialism/Fascism I see as the only way to return countries to a state of order without my people being eliminated.

    I am open to any alternatives people have that satisfy my conditions.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I disagree. I am yet to see any real arguments for ethnic diversity making a society more stable and powerful. There is a repeated pattern of conflict whenever two disparate groups are put in the same place and one group does not significantly outnumber the other.

    National Socialism/Fascism I see as the only way to return countries to a state of order without eliminating my people.

    I am open to alternatives. But ethnic homogeneity is a non negotiable condition.
    But it must be undeniable that pride in and political association with one's ethnic group is the root of the problem in the first place, no?

    This repeated pattern of conflict would probably be seen in claimed "heterogeneous" societies where ethnic groups wall themselves off from one another under the cry of political unity. In these societies, ethnic groups are associated with differing economic statuses, thereby increasing the unity seen in these ethnic groups so that they may jeer at the more fortunate ethnic groups at the higher economic statuses. What is the cause then, of this compartmentalization seen in claimed "heterogeneous" societies, other than Nativism and Ethnic Nationalism, where certain ethnic groups are favored due to the division of ethnic groups by economic statuses. Where there is persecution, as seen in civilizations such as the 19th-20th Century United States, ethnic groups are inevitably condemned to the lower economic classes, not by lack of ability but by the mere physiological association with an ethnic identity. Thus, adherence to the nation's majority ethnic group causes the forced political adherence of others to their respective physiologic ethnic groups, as the latter must band together politically to have any chance at standing against the majority ethnic group. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to realize that the cause of ethnic problems is the pride in ethnic groups. Ethnic favoritism is the cause of the problems, but it would seem that the proposed solution is to simply remove the differing ethnic groups, which would allow us to come to the conclusion that humans as a species are all naturally designed to favor specific ethnic groups and shun other ethnic groups (which could validly be true, but is not the point I am making).

    Either way you look at it, Ethnic favoritism is the cause of the problem in the first place.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    But it must be undeniable that pride in and political association with one's ethnic group is the root of the problem in the first place, no?

    This repeated pattern of conflict would probably be seen in claimed "heterogeneous" societies where ethnic groups wall themselves off from one another under the cry of political unity. In these societies, ethnic groups are associated with differing economic statuses, thereby increasing the unity seen in these ethnic groups so that they may jeer at the more fortunate ethnic groups at the higher economic statuses. What is the cause then, of this compartmentalization seen in claimed "heterogeneous" societies, other than Nativism and Ethnic Nationalism, where certain ethnic groups are favored due to the division of ethnic groups by economic statuses. Where there is persecution, as seen in civilizations such as the 19th-20th Century United States, ethnic groups are inevitably condemned to the lower economic classes, not by lack of ability but by the mere physiological association with an ethnic identity. Thus, adherence to the nation's majority ethnic group causes the forced political adherence of others to their respective physiologic ethnic groups, as the latter must band together politically to have any chance at standing against the majority ethnic group. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to realize that the cause of ethnic problems is the pride in ethnic groups. Ethnic favoritism is the cause of the problems, but it would seem that the proposed solution is to simply remove the differing ethnic groups, which would allow us to come to the conclusion that humans as a species are all naturally designed to favor specific ethnic groups and shun other ethnic groups (which could validly be true, but is not the point I am making).

    Either way you look at it, Ethnic favoritism is the cause of the problem in the first place.
    What you are talking about is an extension of group selection. However unlike with family, it is weak enough that you generally don't identify with your ethnicity let alone race except when comparing yourself with somebody different. The "problem" (I don't see it as a problem tbh) is that people are primed to recognize who is similar and different to them.

    Pretty much every ethnic group you can think of has been subjugated by another ethnic group at some point in time, sometimes for many centuries. Nationalism provides a way to regather and create a future where you aren't governed by people you can't relate to. It is a basic instinct to want to be able to relate to and respect your leaders. It is much harder to do that if they don't share kinship with you, because their interests will not the the same. Group identity as a member of a majority benefits the majority. I am a member of a majority (at the moment!) and it makes sense for me to be concerned about encouraging group consciousness as this increases our political dominance. The struggles of rival groups I can only sympathise with if they don't threaten the power of my people.

    Our ability to discern difference is the issue. But I don't view this as a problem, simply a reality that needs to be considered when making decisions about society.

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