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  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Default "There are precious few people who’ve been right about Iraq from the start"

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...troops_in.html

    The US (read: 'Obawma administration') never should have withdrawn troops from Iraq.

    I'm not saying that I was right about Iraq from the start. I fell for the fake satellite photo just like Bush II did. And I had no reason to doubt it. Bush II, a blandly anti-intellectual combination of moral crusader and benevolent dictator, supported the US (and probably British) war and oil industries. If you go looking for a war to fight, you will surely find one in the Middle East.

    However, as with most nations, the situation in Iraq is and was more complex than it seemed at first glance. Sunnis and Shias are fighting an internal Jihad to determine which vaguely justifiable interpretation of the Quran shall rule Iraq. Saddam Hussein was an external threat, but the real threat was cultural, not political.

    The Bush II administration knew about the cultural conflict, but chose to ignore it in favor of fighting the easier battle, the one they knew the US could easily win. Soon after I learned about the cultural conflict, I realized that eliminating Hussein will actually do the Jihadists a huge favor. The real threat to US national security is the Jihadists, not Saddam Hussein. I knew this long before the Iraq II, yet I was duped by "whoever" into believing that Hussein was stockpiling WMDs, thus making Hussein the greater threat. (I was also disgruntled with UN inspectors in Iraq whom I was led to believe were being paid to look the other way.)

    Once the invasion was completed, it was the US's (i.e., the Omama administration's) duty to keep troops in Iraq until true stability and self-reliance was obtained. Instead, in 2011, Obammy chose to divest himself of all responsibility for the situation in Iraq and blow sunshine up the ass of the entire world by lying and declaring that stability and national self-reliance was achieved.

    This year, the Obammy administration was fully aware that Iraqi Jihadists were encamped in Iraq while they prepared for a new assault on their cultural opposition. But the Oblammy administration chose to ignore this threat - of course. Because the official position of this Presidency is that Iraq is stable and self-reliant. A stable and self-reliant Iraq is not prone to such things, although all the evidence pointed to the fact that Iraqi police don't know which part of a gun to hold onto, and furthermore, that they have nothing left to defend, culturally speaking, "democracy" being only an empty abstraction to them relative to 1500 years of Islamic history and its powerful psychological and cultural influence.

    So of course the half-hearted and morally vacuous Iraq police and army abandoned their posts. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...troops_in.html

    The US (read: 'Obawma administration') never should have withdrawn troops from Iraq.

    I'm not saying that I was right about Iraq from the start. I fell for the fake satellite photo just like Bush II did. And I had no reason to doubt it. Bush II, a blandly anti-intellectual combination of moral crusader and benevolent dictator, supported the US (and probably British) war and oil industries. If you go looking for a war to fight, you will surely find one in the Middle East.

    However, as with most nations, the situation in Iraq is and was more complex than it seemed at first glance. Sunnis and Shias are fighting an internal Jihad to determine which vaguely justifiable interpretation of the Quran shall rule Iraq. Saddam Hussein was an external threat, but the real threat was cultural, not political.

    The Bush II administration knew about the cultural conflict, but chose to ignore it in favor of fighting the easier battle, the one they knew the US could easily win. Soon after I learned about the cultural conflict, I realized that eliminating Hussein will actually do the Jihadists a huge favor. The real threat to US national security is the Jihadists, not Saddam Hussein. I knew this long before the Iraq II, yet I was duped by "whoever" into believing that Hussein was stockpiling WMDs, thus making Hussein the greater threat. (I was also disgruntled with UN inspectors in Iraq whom I was led to believe were being paid to look the other way.)

    Once the invasion was completed, it was the US's (i.e., the Omama administration's) duty to keep troops in Iraq until true stability and self-reliance was obtained. Instead, in 2011, Obammy chose to divest himself of all responsibility for the situation in Iraq and blow sunshine up the ass of the entire world by lying and declaring that stability and national self-reliance was achieved.

    This year, the Obammy administration was fully aware that Iraqi Jihadists were encamped in Iraq while they prepared for a new assault on their cultural opposition. But the Oblammy administration chose to ignore this threat - of course. Because the official position of this Presidency is that Iraq is stable and self-reliant. A stable and self-reliant Iraq is not prone to such things, although all the evidence pointed to the fact that Iraqi police don't know which part of a gun to hold onto, and furthermore, that they have nothing left to defend, culturally speaking, "democracy" being only an empty abstraction to them relative to 1500 years of Islamic history and its powerful psychological and cultural influence.

    So of course the half-hearted and morally vacuous Iraq police and army abandoned there posts. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

    It is not an issue of a wiser or smarter practical decision, but a moral decision. This point of view takes the pretense that America should remain the world police; should it? That is the real issue, the issue this does not address.


    If we were focused very hard enough on our national interest, we'd be preparing a war against China, which we may be. If our sole concern was national interest, we'd be sacking the streets of Europe like vikings, since we have the largest military on Earth in the United States.

    But are our judgments right? And even if they are, how can we predict the consequences of our actions? These are not cultures similar to ours, and we have no idea the difference between the message we're sending and the message they're receiving in the Middle East. All we know is, we're in their country waging war against people in their country.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    It is not an issue of a wiser or smarter practical decision, but a moral decision. This point of view takes the pretense that America should remain the world police; should it? That is the real issue, the issue this does not address.


    If we were focused very hard enough on our national interest, we'd be preparing a war against China, which we may be. If our sole concern was national interest, we'd be sacking the streets of Europe like vikings, since we have the largest military on Earth in the United States.

    But are our judgments right? And even if they are, how can we predict the consequences of our actions? These are not cultures similar to ours, and we have no idea the difference between the message we're sending and the message they're receiving in the Middle East. All we know is, we're in their country waging war against people in their country.
    The moral must be considered along with the practical. And only politics is considered practical where government is concerned. Even without the possible threat of WMDs in Iraq, invading that country would have been a moral act. But in the presence of possible world consequences, the result hasn't been very practical. The US has the simple advantage of being geographically aloof, defended by walls of ocean on both sides (at least in terms of short-term consequences). Europe and the Middle East enjoy no such advantage. Geographically cushioned as it is, the US doesn't suffer any of the short-term negative consequences of its own international adventurousness. This also creates a certain moral and political arrogance in the US government. But the arrogance is not earned, collectively it is the result of an almost innate or inherited advantage.

    There is no practical reason to invade China, and every reason to avoid it. The US has economic reason to avoid it. I don't know what threat you see in China, except perhaps ecologically. Pollution from Chinese coal-fired plants has started a chain-reaction of warming in the world's oceans which then boils over (pun intended) to threaten land-based organisms. This, however, is not an immediate threat to national security, nor is it a threat directed by the Chinese people to the rest of the world. It is simply born of a desire to not spend money to clean up their act, although the Chinese do like to spend it on building fake cities in order to artificially boost their gross domestic product. This is immoral because it is a lie, but the Obawmy administration (which is far from being morally above lies) simply looks with admiration on China's GDP as evidence of economic success, and covets the political system that created it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    The moral must be considered along with the practical. And only politics is considered practical where government is concerned. Even without the possible threat of WMDs in Iraq, invading that country would have been a moral act. But in the presence of possible world consequences, the result hasn't been very practical. The US has the simple advantage of being geographically aloof, defended by walls of ocean on both sides (at least in terms of short-term consequences). Europe and the Middle East enjoy no such advantage. Geographically cushioned as it is, the US doesn't suffer any of the short-term negative consequences of its own international adventurousness. This also creates a certain moral and political arrogance in the US government. But the arrogance is not earned, collectively it is the result of an almost innate or inherited advantage.

    There is no practical reason to invade China, and every reason to avoid it. The US has economic reason to avoid it. I don't know what threat you see in China, except perhaps ecologically. Pollution from Chinese coal-fired plants has started a chain-reaction of warming in the world's oceans which then boils over (pun intended) to threaten land-based organisms. This, however, is not an immediate threat to national security, nor is it a threat directed by the Chinese people to the rest of the world. It is simply born of a desire to not spend money to clean up their act, although the Chinese do like to spend it on building fake cities in order to artificially boost their gross domestic product. This is immoral because it is a lie, but the Obawmy administration (which is far from being morally above lies) simply looks with admiration on China's GDP as evidence of economic success.
    Wait a minute, who's arguing what again? I was trying to say it's a terrible idea to attack any country at all, I'm not sure where you're coming from now.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    Wait a minute, who's arguing what again? I was trying to say it's a terrible idea to attack any country at all, I'm not sure where you're coming from now.
    Edit
    I'll clarify this: You wrote - "All we know is, we're in their country waging war against people in their country." But the US has never intended to wage war against the people (civilians) in other countries.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #6
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    I'm trying to remain aloof from all political rhetoric, as when you say the US wages a war against people in their country. I'm not a left-wing wing-nut. I don't speak the lingo and I don't intend to be drawn into it. So while you say you're agreeing with me, in fact you're not. I'm trying to tell you what I'm saying, and I don't want my words to be interpreted in either right- or left-wing terms.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #7
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I'm trying to remain aloof from all political rhetoric, as when you say the US wages a war against people in their country. I'm not a left-wing wing-nut. I don't speak the lingo and I don't intend to be drawn into it. So while you say you're agreeing with me, in fact you're not. I'm trying to tell you what I'm saying, and I don't want my words to be interpreted in either right- or left-wing terms.
    Your words will be interpreted by whomever however they want, if you don't like it don't post.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  8. #8
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    Your words will be interpreted by whomever however they want, if you don't like it don't post.
    Yes, and I will respond the same way, which is my right.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #9
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    I apologize to all the victims of ISIS for the stupid decision to withdraw troops before the Iraqi government was able to take over. Because we have a donkey in the White House, thousands, if not tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis will be slaughtered.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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