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  1. #41
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    And your incessant anti-American, anti-gun threads aren't?
    C'mon, for 100 years we have fought beside Americans in every major conflict. We have three treaties with you: a military treaty, an economic treaty, and a land treaty - all in good repair.

    As I write, our Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, is visiting your President, Barack Obama, and they have declared they are best mates.

    And they are such good friends President Barack Obama praised Australia for our successful gun laws and would like America to follow suit.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    C'mon, for 100 years we have fought beside Americans in every major conflict. We have three treaties with you: a military treaty, an economic treaty, and a land treaty - all in good repair.

    As I write, our Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, is visiting your President, Barack Obama, and they have declared they are best mates.

    And they are such good friends President Barack Obama praised Australia for our successful gun laws and would like America to follow suit.
    I'm not talking about Australia. I'm talking about YOU and your obvious resentment toward American values, particularly the right to bear arms. You're free to hate all you want, but your rhetoric sounds like a broken record on this forum and it reeks of trolling.
    Likes SpankyMcFly liked this post

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    I'm not talking about Australia. I'm talking about YOU and your obvious resentment toward American values, particularly the right to bear arms. You're free to hate all you want, but your rhetoric sound like a broken record on this forum and it reeks of trolling.
    We are in a fortunate position in that we were able to take the best from Britain and the best from the USA to form the Australian Constitution.

    And fortunately we were free to reject the worst from Britain such as the Class Structure, and we were free to reject the worst from the USA such as money politics, religion and guns.

    And so create Australia Felix.

  4. #44
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And they are such good friends President Barack Obama praised Australia for our successful gun laws and would like America to follow suit.
    I would like to contrast your statement with a partial reference to a comment I made earlier (in direct response to a prior response of yours').

    "In 2008, the Australian Institute of Criminology reported a decrease of 9% in homicides and a one-third decrease in armed robbery since the 1990s, but an increase of over 40% in assaults and 20% in sexual assaults. Australian Institute of Criminology - Australian crime : facts and figures 2008"

    Bottom Line: Yes, Australia has NOT had a mass shooting since they banned guns. Additionally homicides and armed robbery rates are down. Awesome so far. BUT assaults are up and so are sexual assaults. Mixed bag there Mr. Mole and hardly "successful" unless you (along with Obama apparently) are only peering through the filter of "mass shootings". Which I suspect you are doing. Are you?

    I am willing to consider new information and to change my mind on this and related matters. Please bring evidence with credible sources though.

    Please advise.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #45
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    Hmmm....my major objection here isn't that guns make everyone equal in terms of firepower etc, but the fact that it's generally illegal to off someone. Does the concept of 'reasonable force' not apply in the US? For example it's not reasonable force to put a bullet in someone's head because they tried to snatch your handbag. And really the great equalising force of a firearm here only applies if you carry it on your person 24/7. Given that most crimes are perpetrated by people known to their victims (and in a position of trust by extension) are you really going to have your gun handy when your friendly neighbour drops by for a cuppa with the intent to kill or rape you?

    My other objection is, is life really that overtly dangerous over there that you feel you need a weapon on you at all times? Don't know about you but I generally feel safe going about my business during normal hours and in known locations. It just seems to me that the mere act of carrying a weapon keeps a mindset of using it. Plus, lets just say you were unexpectedly grabbed in the street from behind, how are you going to access your gun? If you do not have the strength nor the technique to get out of a lock or stranglehold your weapon is pretty much useless.

    I think most people who are pro-gun also imagine that their perceived threats are always going to give them time to access and use their weapon by coming at them from a visible angle and a distance. Yet if you spend time with police, you will find that attacks mostly do not happen that way. Bad guys aren't going to give you the opportunity to reach for a gun, aim it and fire. They are bad guys because they stack the odds in their favour by not fighting fair. And if you are carrying a gun you've now just armed your attacker if they weren't already armed.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I am willing to consider new information and to change my mind on this and related matters. Please bring evidence with credible sources though.

    Please advise.
    I don't think you quite understand. It is not a matter of evidence and changing your mind, it is a matter of values and changing your heart.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I don't think you quite understand. It is not a matter of evidence and changing your mind, it is a matter of values and changing your heart.
    Gotcha. In that case my heart likes/prefers evidence, lest it get broken.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #48
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    I think using lethal force to protect one's property is justified. Maybe that seems excessive, but a thief can fuck up your credit, steal your identity and cause a lot of finacial turmoil that may have life-altering consequences, all because they're too damn lazy to work for a living, are trying to feed a drug habit, or whatever the case may be. Call me calloused, but I have no sympathy for a burglar who gets a bullet in his head no matter what side of the tracks he grew up on.

  9. #49
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    I pity people who feel the need to have guns. It seems like an atrociously paranoid and fearful way of life.

    People who feel they need to have a gun to protect themselves from bogeymen would be better served my emigrating somewhere better.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    I think protecting one's property is justified in using lethal force. Maybe that seems excessive, but a thief can fuck up your credit, steal your identity and cause a lot of finacial turmoil that may have life-altering consequences, all because they're too damn lazy to work for a living, are trying to feed a drug habit, or whatever the case may be. Call me calloused, but I have no sympathy for a burglar who gets a bullet in his head no matter what side of the tracks he grew up on.
    Okay so now this is closer to the real issue. A difference in idealogy rather than a difference in law.

    Lethal force is okay to protect property vs destroying a knee cap with a bullet would do the trick. Is lethal force necessary to stop a rapist or would some lead in his testicles be sufficient? And this is why the gun debate rages on, the emotional response triggered by a threatening situation.

    In my country (not saying its superior btw) if you were to permanently disable someone for trying to steal your property you would be on the wrong end of the law. Because it allows for the use of force necessary to render an attacker harmless or incapable of causing further harm. While dead certainly falls into that category, a court would be looking at the least level of force necessary to accomplish that goal.

    The problem is, is someone in fight or flight mode in a capacity to clearly make that distinction and decision? I guess our laws say no, so they remove our ability to cause harm out of proportion to the threat. They've taken the stance that a few innocents sacrificed in the name of de-escalation is a better outcome to many non-innocents grievously harmed out of all proportion to the threat that they posed, and subsequently a lot of innocents ending up in jail as a result. Now the question really is.....

    Is it better to sacrifice a few innocents or a lot of bad guys, knowing that sacrificing the bad guys will result in the criminalisation of the innocents who will likely have an over-reaction and do something they later regret? Interesting....So it's not so much about moral stances, its more about removing an object that becomes problematic when in the hands of a person in a highly emotional state. Although I highly doubt that much thought was ever given to the matter....in all honesty.

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