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  1. #291
    Privileged Sh!tlord ZNP-TBA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    You are right that America is "lonac" but in a sense Croatia is as well since various groups had control over this territory and various religions effected this area. Not nearly as USA but the factor is still observable if you scratch the surface. Istria, Slavonia and Dubrovnik ... totally different stories.
    Croatia is a 'lonac' of cultural influence for sure but the core ethno-religious identity of nearly all the people is in tact. Actually for a country as small as Croatia to have incorporated so much cultural and architectural diversity is quite impressive. Croats speak different dialects depending on region and have some different folklore but still remain a united people because even 500 years of being politically divided by 3 different empires (Venetian Republic, Ottoman, and Austria-Hungary) they still aggregate into a ethno-religious whole. Even though you have pretty bitter rivalries like Hajduk and Dinamo clubs they still unite when the nation as a whole is threatened as demonstrated in the 90s. Common history, common language, common religion, common ancestry, common identity.

    Also you can relate to me since I was rised in more western/intellectual way and we can find common langauge. However I am uncertain how would you deal with many more average Croats who live here. Due to cultural reasons I am by American standards very left while in Croatia I can even come as "Capitalist pig". There are also countless examples of Croats who came back into the land of their grandfathers but they moved back from where they came from within 6 months since they couldn't stand the "modern Croatian culture" and "socialism". Therefore since you declare yourself as Trump supporter and generally libertarian I simply don't see you fitting in here any time soon. Comming as a "tourist" for a few weeks is one thing but living here is another thing. I am willing to bet that you would have easier time to hang out with many Americans than these guys ...
    This is interesting. I get along with average Croats there fantastically from Vukovar to Dubrovnik and everything in between. The thing is I don't assume I know them until they 'let me in.' My uncle is a war veteran that lives in Slavonia now and I've had great conversations with him and his war buddies. I don't pretend to know the shit they went through but patiently listen and respect their contribution to the conversation inasmuch as they are willing to share. I don't impose my opinion on politics unless asked to basically since it's not the country I live in. Something really stupid to do is assume you have more 'knowledge' than the average people, especially the older generation, just because you're raised with more 'western values.' Knowledge still doesn't mean mudrost (wisdom). I don't declare myself a Trump supporter, just a non-hater.

    Politically I fit in best with the people from my ancestral home of Hercegovina who tend to be a little more right-wing and find the most common ground with them minus the over-exaggerated nationalism. I actually have an easy time hanging out with both Cros there and Americans here. It's a different atmosphere. There I know I am among 'my kin' and know they understand me on a cultural level that American's simply can't. It doesn't mean there isn't strong bonds in both places.

    In other words even if there are no differences most people will invent them so that they have someone to hate. This may depend on which part of the country you are from or which sport club has your sympathies. It even happens that various sport fan groups mark some random field in the middle of the nowhere and then they just fight each other there. We don't have the differences as Amarica so we simply invented ours out of nothing.
    There's a lot of strong regional pride there just like here. Maybe the fandom of teams here aren't as passionate or willing to fight others as much as there but the same general regional pride exists. However, what did all those Hajduk and Dinamo fans do when Croatia was plunged into war? They all united and recognized an enemy greater than their regional differences. You can feel the same amount of Croatian nationalism, in those days, surging from both Zagreb and Split.

    This is also one of the reasons why I am anti guns since Croats armed was American public ... that would be a massacre or civil war. This way at least the problem stays at a few incidents and physical injuries ... and country remains generally calm and witout classical street violence.
    Croatia would never plunge into civil war between Croats, that's ridiculous and you know it. Whats far more likely to happen is another ethnic conflict in Bosnia or something. Not having guns to defend themselves against regional neighbors and anti-Croat insurgence is what led to a prolonged war and a higher death toll.

    I know that I am digging out the nasties of Croatia but saying that we are unified nation is simply wrong. In America at least everybody believes in Constitution, founding fathers or something while here this is "whatever". In America you can be fairly sure that the goverment will remain standing while here you have new system, new government, new currency and new borders with each new generation. Yeah, we may look alike but that doesn't mean that we are trully one and we have serious divides about most Americans doesn't even think about.
    I'm not saying there is surging national pride, especially among the younger people, there but it's still an undercurrent that can still be potentially strong. If another 1990s situation was thrust on Croatia the unity would become more solid. The basic fact is that no matter what the people share a common core identity based on tradition, culture, blood, and religion and when that core is threatened that's when it all comes together. Croatia is 90% religiously and ethnically homogeneous, it would be one of last countries to descend into civil war between its own people. You might be underestimating the value in having a common core.

    I'm not so sure America would stand with an overwhelming financial collapse and failing of law and order. It's just as likely that America would revert back to its republican roots and become regionally separated with maybe a much looser confederation. The issue is that America controls the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons and is very tied with virtually every economy of the world that it's in most nations' interest that America remains in tact.
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  2. #292
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    Croatia is a 'lonac' of cultural influence for sure but the core ethno-religious identity of nearly all the people is in tact. Actually for a country as small as Croatia to have incorporated so much cultural and architectural diversity is quite impressive. Croats speak different dialects depending on region and have some different folklore but still remain a united people because even 500 years of being politically divided by 3 different empires (Venetian Republic, Ottoman, and Austria-Hungary) they still aggregate into a ethno-religious whole. Even though you have pretty bitter rivalries like Hajduk and Dinamo clubs they still unite when the nation as a whole is threatened as demonstrated in the 90s. Common history, common language, common religion, common ancestry, common identity.


    ...

    Croatia would never plunge into civil war between Croats, that's ridiculous and you know it. Whats far more likely to happen is another ethnic conflict in Bosnia or something. Not having guns to defend themselves against regional neighbors and anti-Croat insurgence is what led to a prolonged war and a higher death toll.


    I'm not saying there is surging national pride, especially among the younger people, there but it's still an undercurrent that can still be potentially strong. If another 1990s situation was thrust on Croatia the unity would become more solid. The basic fact is that no matter what the people share a common core identity based on tradition, culture, blood, and religion and when that core is threatened that's when it all comes together. Croatia is 90% religiously and ethnically homogeneous, it would be one of last countries to descend into civil war between its own people. You might be underestimating the value in having a common core.

    I'm not so sure America would stand with an overwhelming financial collapse and failing of law and order. It's just as likely that America would revert back to its republican roots and become regionally separated with maybe a much looser confederation. The issue is that America controls the largest stockpile of nuclear weapons and is very tied with virtually every economy of the world that it's in most nations' interest that America remains in tact.


    Everything what you said is correct at face value or it WAS correct. However over the last few years there was a implosion of middle class and demography, what resurrected many previous divides and mass media constantly pump the dividing of some kind. Kolinda even made quite a number of speeches about restoring the unity of the nation and I am pretty sure that it is possible to find them somewhere online. The country took the wrong turn and pretty much everybody here knows this as the climate of the 90s is long gone, people are much more cynical today than before and you can sense that in the air. If you have relatives here ask them a little bit about partizani/ustase thing, mass emigration of young people, banks going rogue, media culture, government that collapsed only 5 months after it was formed, public debt ... etc. In a way Croatia you believe in no longer exists. Is that sad/wrong ? Of course it is but currently Croatian society is one big mess and the only thing that keeps it togather is tourism money. Without that it would be a complete mess.


    Also you got me wrong in one detail: I have absolutely nothing against armed police or army but I don't think that every dude should have its personal armory, especially now when the society is on the edge. I have mentioned civil war for the sake of drama in order to express the drama of the situation, however when you look at what is in the media and what political figures are doing and saying then this isn't completely unfounded. Plus there is active sparatist movement is Istria for years, this is a fact. Separation is probably not going to happen but the movement/idea exists.
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  3. #293
    Privileged Sh!tlord ZNP-TBA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Everything what you said is correct at face value or it WAS correct. However over the last few years there was a implosion of middle class and demography, what resurrected many previous divides and mass media constantly pump the dividing of some kind. Kolinda even made quite a number of speeches about restoring the unity of the nation and I am pretty sure that it is possible to find them somewhere online. The country took the wrong turn and pretty much everybody here knows this as the climate of the 90s is long gone, people are much more cynical today than before and you can sense that in the air. If you have relatives here ask them a little bit about partizani/ustase thing, mass emigration of young people, banks going rogue, media culture, government that collapsed only 5 months after it was formed, public debt ... etc. In a way Croatia you believe in no longer exists. Is that sad/wrong ? Of course it is but currently Croatian society is one big mess and the only thing that keeps it togather is tourism money. Without that it would be a complete mess.


    Also you got me wrong in one detail: I have absolutely nothing against armed police or army but I don't think that every dude should have its personal armory, especially now when the society is on the edge. I have mentioned civil war for the sake of drama in order to express the drama of the situation, however when you look at what is in the media and what political figures are doing and saying then this isn't completely unfounded. Plus there is active sparatist movement is Istria for years, this is a fact. Separation is probably not going to happen but the movement/idea exists.
    Yeah I talk to my family on a weekly basis there. They do talk about the stuff you mentioned but do not sound quite as dire about it. There is definitely cynicism in common but not an outright surrender of hope. And I have family across all social strata. A relatively wealthy aunt that's a university professor and a car mechanic for an uncle, haha. It seems like my extended family in BiH and eastern Slavonia go through tougher days than the ones in Zagreb.

    How do you think joining the EU has impacted any of this you speak about positively or negatively? I'm not trying to bait you but I'm genuinely curious from a western minded young Croat there.

  4. #294
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Wow.
    Supreme Court just said this:

    "But there is no reason to believe that an extra layer of regulation would have affected that behavior. Determined wrongdoers, already ignoring existing statutes and safety measures, are unlikely to be convinced to adopt safe practices by a new overlay of regulations.”
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #295
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Another thread just to further underline that you can't have a decent discussion about gun control without groups of people losing their minds?

    Surely a path well trodden.

    Still it's odd how so many people use figures and yet don't use probability.

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