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  1. #251
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    What does Senator Leyonhjellm mean by "no difference to firearms violence, gun violence overall", from the above post?

    Melbourne Institute Working Paper Series
    Working Paper No. 17/08
    The Australian Firearms Buyback
    and Its Effect on Gun Deaths


    "University of Melbourne researchers Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi concluded their 2008 report on the matter with the statement, “There is little evidence to suggest that [the Australian mandatory gun-buyback program] had any significant effects on firearm homicides.”

    “Although gun buybacks appear to be a logical and sensible policy that helps to placate the public’s fears,” the reported continued, “the evidence so far suggests that in the Australian context, the high expenditure incurred to fund the 1996 gun buyback has not translated into any tangible reductions in terms of firearm deaths.”

    http://c8.nrostatic.com/sites/defaul...rdi%202008.pdf


    A 2007 report, “Gun Laws and Sudden Death: Did the Australian Firearms Legislation of 1996 Make a Difference?” by Jeanine Baker and Samara McPhedran similarly concluded that the buyback program did not have a significant long-term effect on the Australian homicide rate.

    http://c3.nrostatic.com/sites/defaul...ran%202007.pdf
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
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  2. #252
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Well, they are telling us the mass murder of fifty loving Americans last night has nothing to do with Islam; and they tell us American gun culture is not pathological.

  3. #253
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Something mystifies me:

    When a traffic pile-up takes place (every day across my country), people do not become inflamed and form lobbying groups to enact changes to auto/traffic legislation. Why not?

    When a mass-shooting takes place, that is the immediate reaction! Despite the fact that: the chances of being killed by a gun are 1 in 220,000 and the chance of being killed in an auto accident is 1 in 11,000.

    Inconsistent!

    People who oppose firearms aren’t asking the right questions.

    SO WHAT?

    Well, what would be accomplished if instead of the usual back and forth, we asked:

    - If registering and prohibiting firearms doesn’t work, then what DOES limit violent crime?

    - What if more education was given to people regarding storage of guns and not leaving guns loaded? What if incentives were given: to own gun safes?

    - If people could ‘keep their guns’, what then? What if the money poured into firearm lobbying was expended into education and the treatment of the mentally {criminal} ill?

    - What if the attention to guns was transferred to prison reform and chronic criminal rehabilitation?

    - What if the HUGE factor of alcohol/drug use relating to violent firearm crime was put under the microscope?


    If these questions don't seem relevant, the data support is found below (basic principles apply to both Canada and the U.S.):


    Reducing the # of Guns Does Not Lower Violent Crime


    In Canada 44% of rural households own firearms compared to 11% in urban areas, yet the violent crime rate in urban Canada is over 40% higher than in rural.

    Despite more stringent gun controls the violent crime in Canada has grown FASTER than the U.S. It increased by 70% between 1977 and 1996.



    Most Homicides are Not Committed by Average People with Illegally Owned Firearms

    At least 3/4 of all murderers (and nearly 1/2 of the victims) have previous criminal records. Research shows that most murderers suffer from serious personality disorders, substance abuse, unemployment, and antisocial behaviour.

    The largest contributing factor in 2 out of 3 homicides in Canada (and 62% of all violent crimes) is alcohol abuse. How would the average person feel about regulating or pre-screening the purchase of alcohol in North America? {Crickets}



    Most Domestic Violence Doesn’t Include Firearms

    99% of sexual assaults are committed with other weapons and less than 0.5% of violent incidents in families involve use of a gun.

    3/4 of domestic fatalities do not involve firearms.



    Restricting Legal Access to Guns Does Not Deter Armed Criminals

    Even in the U.S., the Wright, Rossi survey {convicted American violent offenders} showed that criminals don’t access guns from well-regulated, licensed dealers.

    Most criminals access firearms within 24 hours of leaving prison, don’t ever register the guns and will saw off shotguns or rifles to ‘conceal’ if no handguns are available.

    Most serious crime is committed by repeat offenders.



    Automatics, Semi and Military Assault Firearms are Not the Weapon of Choice for Criminals

    No military in the world uses semiautomatic firearms described as “military assault weapons”.

    Less than 1.5% of homicides involve this type of firearm.



    Yes, Firearms Are Effective and Reasonable in Self-Defence Use


    Most often when self or property is defended, the firearm is not discharged.

    In the US burglaries occurs against occupied homes 13% of the time. Whereas, in the less armed Canada, they occur 44% of the time (I have experienced this myself).

    3,300 lives are saved in Canada annually using fire-arms as self-defence. That means that firearms are used twice as often in self-defence than in criminal violence.

  4. #254
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    I still have this on the brain. I am convinced that the: ’tail is wagging the dog’ when it comes to this topic.

    The NRA is the strongest special interest group in the US. In 2010 it’s assets exceeded $163 million and it had revenues of almost $228 million. It’s membership and financial health give it HUGE influence on the social landscape.

    How can such immense lobbying power be devoted to what should be: a non-issue upon examination of fact?!

    The chances of dying from auto or work accidents or even from falling - are significantly greater than being killed by a firearm.

    I can’t stop thinking about what could happen if society recognized that the danger of firearms pales in comparison to the danger of not properly educating it’s citizens or giving attention to productive criminal stewardship. {Criminals being who generally wield firearms for violent purpose}.

    Neither education or prison reform are represented in the top special interest groups

  5. #255
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    I still have this on the brain. I am convinced that the: ’tail is wagging the dog’ when it comes to this topic.

    The NRA is the strongest special interest group in the US. In 2010 it’s assets exceeded $163 million and it had revenues of almost $228 million. It’s membership and financial health give it HUGE influence on the social landscape.

    How can such immense lobbying power be devoted to what should be: a non-issue upon examination of fact?!

    The chances of dying from auto or work accidents or even from falling - are significantly greater than being killed by a firearm.

    I can’t stop thinking about what could happen if society recognized that the danger of firearms pales in comparison to the danger of not properly educating it’s citizens or giving attention to productive criminal stewardship. {Criminals being who generally wield firearms for violent purpose}.

    Neither education or prison reform are represented in the top special interest groups
    The most powerful special interest is the bank lobby.......

    As to guns, they are a wedge issues. Wedge issues are emotionally charged issues designed to divide people and hide more important society issues (such as the plutocracy) and never get resolved. Wedge issues greatly aid political parties by forcing people to a side.

    Not that long ago, abortion split both parties. The Republicans were the more pro-abortion party and Reagan signed one of the first legalization laws as governor. But because it was a more nonpartisan issue, he could do that.

    But as the Southern Democrats and Reagan Democrats switched to the Republican Party, abortion went from nonpartisan to partisan. The interest groups are very powerful and both parties use the issue to increase allegiance.

    Pro abortion Republicans are mostly nonexistent and so are anti abortion Democrats.

    And activists use emotional language (pro life and pro choice) to bypass rational thought.

    Almost every other wedge issue is similar .

    As to crime, the best way to limit it is developing connections to the larger community for individuals on the margin. They need to belong and integrate with society and have hope in the future.

    The gun lobby has zero incentive to address crime.

    The gun control lobby has zero incentive to address crime.

    Both want to keep people divide on this.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
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  6. #256
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    @SearchingforPeace

    The most powerful special interest is the bank lobby.......
    Really!? Obviously I was reading erroneous information. Thanks for the check. I will re-visit researching.

    As to guns, they are a wedge issues. Wedge issues are emotionally charged issues designed to divide people and hide more important society issues (such as the plutocracy) and never get resolved. Wedge issues greatly aid political parties by forcing people to a side...

    The gun lobby has zero incentive to address crime.

    The gun control lobby has zero incentive to address crime.

    Both want to keep people divide on this...
    I condensed your quote but truly appreciated all that you wrote.

    Regarding the bold: I can be a naiive little bunny, my friend

    Thanks for the heads up

  7. #257
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    @SearchingforPeace



    Really!? Obviously I was reading erroneous information. Thanks for the check. I will re-visit researching.



    I condensed your quote but truly appreciated all that you wrote.

    Regarding the bold: I can be a naiive little bunny, my friend

    Thanks for the heads up
    It looks like pharma has the top spot overall, but it depends on how you slice it.

    https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=i

    But here is Hillary

    Banking is #1 for Hillary

    Top Industries data for Hillary Clinton, 2016 Cycle | OpenSecrets
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

  8. #258
    is indra's Avatar
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    No they aren't. I've shown a lot of people a lot of tricks with a hammer, a prybar, or some wire. If anything, the possession of materials only further marginalizes those without.
    tiny purple fishes run laughing through your fingers
    and you want to take her with you, to the hard land of the winter

  9. #259
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    Focusing on gun control will hand us this election.

  10. #260
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Well, they are telling us the mass murder of fifty loving Americans last night has nothing to do with Islam; and they tell us American gun culture is not pathological.
    It should be obvious that this gunman was pathological. In the absence of headline-grabbing violent Muslim groups, he would have found some other justification, perhaps just "plain, old" homophobia.

    Similarly, the Salem Witch hysteria had nothing to do with Christianity; that was just the pretext. It was all a property dispute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    Something mystifies me:

    When a traffic pile-up takes place (every day across my country), people do not become inflamed and form lobbying groups to enact changes to auto/traffic legislation. Why not?

    When a mass-shooting takes place, that is the immediate reaction! Despite the fact that: the chances of being killed by a gun are 1 in 220,000 and the chance of being killed in an auto accident is 1 in 11,000.

    Inconsistent!

    People who oppose firearms aren’t asking the right questions.

    SO WHAT?

    Well, what would be accomplished if instead of the usual back and forth, we asked:

    - If registering and prohibiting firearms doesn’t work, then what DOES limit violent crime?

    - What if more education was given to people regarding storage of guns and not leaving guns loaded? What if incentives were given: to own gun safes?

    - If people could ‘keep their guns’, what then? What if the money poured into firearm lobbying was expended into education and the treatment of the mentally {criminal} ill?

    - What if the attention to guns was transferred to prison reform and chronic criminal rehabilitation?

    - What if the HUGE factor of alcohol/drug use relating to violent firearm crime was put under the microscope?
    Then there is the issue of mental illness, especially left untreated due to social stigma, accessibility of care, or cost of care.

    But bottom line: your post here is the most worthwhile and well thought-out contribution I have seen here on this topic, probably ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    As to guns, they are a wedge issues. Wedge issues are emotionally charged issues designed to divide people and hide more important society issues (such as the plutocracy) and never get resolved. Wedge issues greatly aid political parties by forcing people to a side.

    Not that long ago, abortion split both parties. The Republicans were the more pro-abortion party and Reagan signed one of the first legalization laws as governor. But because it was a more nonpartisan issue, he could do that.
    I is perhaps ironic then that Reagan was particularly masterful at using these wedge issues to divide his opponents.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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