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  1. #241
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Yes, since we legislated and implemented gun control in 1996, we have had not one gun massacre in the Continent of Australia.

    By contrast, the leader of the Free World, the United States of America, remains entranced by its gun culture, and continues to have one gun massacre after another.
    I did not ask broadly about gun control. I asked about the specific measure of requiring background checks for the purchase of firearms. Does anyone have information about whether that itself has been shown to reduce gun violence?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #242
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I did not ask broadly about gun control. I asked about the specific measure of requiring background checks for the purchase of firearms. Does anyone have information about whether that itself has been shown to reduce gun violence?
    We can of course own a gun in Australia for a legitimate purpose such as sport, farming, and any other legitimate purpose, but not without a licence, and certainly not without a background check. And we have reduced gun violence to the extent that we have had not one gun massacre since 1996.

    We believe Americans have a mental problem with guns.

  3. #243
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I did not ask broadly about gun control. I asked about the specific measure of requiring background checks for the purchase of firearms. Does anyone have information about whether that itself has been shown to reduce gun violence?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    We can of course own a gun in Australia for a legitimate purpose such as sport, farming, and any other legitimate purpose, but not without a licence, and certainly not without a background check. And we have reduced gun violence to the extent that we have had not one gun massacre since 1996.

    We believe Americans have a mental problem with guns.
    Here is a PDF on the gun-related vs other crime before and after the 1996 buyback: http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/...iament-Rev.pdf

    For the most part, crime and suicide rates for both gun-related and non-gun-related incidents were already decreasing beforehand, and continued decreasing afterward. In those cases where there are brief upticks in the rates, gun and non-gun rates move synchronously. It is difficult to determine a cause-effect relationship between that 1996 law change and better crime and gun-crime rates overall, when the data suggests that there is no effect at all.

    Even though gun ownership went up in succeeding years faster than the growth of population, Australia has experienced the same decrease in violent crime that other Western Democracies have in recent decades, including the United States.

    Oh, and Mole, your claim about "not one gun massacre since 1996" is easily refuted by a Google search. Perhaps you need to go correct this Wikipedia page and have it remove its post-1996 incidents? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_Australia

    Rampage/spree shootings are so rare that it's difficult to even measure a "rate" reliably. They get lots of attention, but I think that results in bad policy overall, because policy is then based on very rare crimes and stopping those, as opposed to very common crimes and stopping those.

    W/r to Coriolis' question, the same logic applies: crime rates have been going down, period, for over two decades. That makes it very difficult to show which policies are reducing crime, if any. My theory? Computer games! More and more young men who would be tempted to go on shooting sprees can instead harmlessly slaughter their friends (or computer AI) in virtual gunfights. Such virtual training, especially player vs player, teaches these same people how quickly they would die in a real gunfight. Hence, less gun crime and crime overall, as the adrenaline rush gets played out digitally. I can't prove my theory, but hey, it's pretty darn plausible, is it not?
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  4. #244
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Here is a PDF on the gun-related vs other crime before and after the 1996 buyback: http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/...iament-Rev.pdf

    For the most part, crime and suicide rates for both gun-related and non-gun-related incidents were already decreasing beforehand, and continued decreasing afterward. In those cases where there are brief upticks in the rates, gun and non-gun rates move synchronously. It is difficult to determine a cause-effect relationship between that 1996 law change and better crime and gun-crime rates overall, when the data suggests that there is no effect at all.

    Even though gun ownership went up in succeeding years faster than the growth of population, Australia has experienced the same decrease in violent crime that other Western Democracies have in recent decades, including the United States.

    Oh, and Mole, your claim about "not one gun massacre since 1996" is easily refuted by a Google search. Perhaps you need to go correct this Wikipedia page and have it remove its post-1996 incidents? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_Australia

    Rampage/spree shootings are so rare that it's difficult to even measure a "rate" reliably. They get lots of attention, but I think that results in bad policy overall, because policy is then based on very rare crimes and stopping those, as opposed to very common crimes and stopping those.

    W/r to Coriolis' question, the same logic applies: crime rates have been going down, period, for over two decades. That makes it very difficult to show which policies are reducing crime, if any. My theory? Computer games! More and more young men who would be tempted to go on shooting sprees can instead harmlessly slaughter their friends (or computer AI) in virtual gunfights. Such virtual training, especially player vs player, teaches these same people how quickly they would die in a real gunfight. Hence, less gun crime and crime overall, as the adrenaline rush gets played out digitally. I can't prove my theory, but hey, it's pretty darn plausible, is it not?
    More win Uumlau . I've already showed he who shall not be named stats on Australian crime going up post gun ban, in certain categories. His anti Americanism is rooted in fear (that he then projects) from what I can tell. He knows his culture will be assimilated at some point by American cultural hegemony. Or he's just trolling because it works

    Great thesis on relation between online avenues to vent aggression and declining crime rates. I for one personally relate. After a long stressful day at work where I have to keep my cool and behave within certain parameters there's nothing like decompressing by going online and playing an FPS. In, get my fix, out.

    I've shared this before but I'll mention it again just in case. I once asked a Canadian sarcastically; social researchers 'believe' there is a correlation between depicted violence and actual violence, why is it then that Canadians consume mostly the same stuff yet aren't as violent? He quipped: It's too cold! Haha! So true.

    This led me to think hmmm, the history of mass shootings and inclement weather. My inner scientist needed to know, I got bored after about 30ish. All showed an inverse relation to local weather. Bad weather = no mass shootings.

    In sunny Socal bad weather is rare, but when it happens I smile and think about that . However when the weather is nice i take a *deep breath* "today's a good day to die".

    The sun, it's so oppresive, always there burning me, taunting me as I scurry about with my subtle complications of life.

    P.S. Apparently I OD'd on emojis, I blame monster energy drinks 2x $4 at the quick mart. Made my inner scrooge happy.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #245
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    More win Uumlau . I've already showed he who shall not be named stats on Australian crime going up post gun ban, in certain categories. His anti Americanism is rooted in fear (that he then projects) from what I can tell. He knows his culture will be assimilated at some point by American cultural hegemony. Or he's just trolling because it works

    Great thesis on relation between online avenues to vent aggression and declining crime rates. I for one personally relate. After a long stressful day at work where I have to keep my cool and behave within certain parameters there's nothing like decompressing by going online and playing an FPS. In, get my fix, out.

    I've shared this before but I'll mention it again just in case. I once asked a Canadian sarcastically; social researchers 'believe' there is a correlation between depicted violence and actual violence, why is it then that Canadians consume mostly the same stuff yet aren't as violent? He quipped: It's too cold! Haha! So true.

    This led me to think hmmm, the history of mass shootings and inclement weather. My inner scientist needed to know, I got bored after about 30ish. All showed an inverse relation to local weather. Bad weather = no mass shootings.

    In sunny Socal bad weather is rare, but when it happens I smile and think about that . However when the weather is nice i take a *deep breath* "today's a good day to die".

    The sun, it's so oppresive, always there burning me, taunting me as I scurry about with my subtle complications of life.
    Anyone who ever played a multiplayer shooter late at night knows that a lot of the other players would be doing all sorts of mayhem if not for the outlet. I read a study years ago that tied a drop in crime to GTA....
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

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    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

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  6. #246
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    We ally ourselves with whoever commands the oceans around Australia. It is entirely a matter of realpolitik, it has nothing to do with the fact we both speak English, or that we like you, it is simply a matter of power politics.

    We are fortunate that you are on the other side of the planet in another season, and that you delude yourselves that we are a little America or that we are trying to be a little America, whereas we have been able to maintain our own unique identity all this time and will into the future.

    The way you see America and the way we see America are quite different. Gun culture is a good example. We don't have a gun culture while America has a pathological gun culture. We have excluded American gun culture and the evil National Rifle Association from Australia by law, and this will never change.

    We see America dominate and even invade other countries without learning their language or their culture, and you don't treat us any differently, so we like to keep you at arms length, and this is easy with you being so far away. And your delusions make it easy.

  7. #247
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    We ally ourselves with whoever commands the oceans around Australia. It is entirely a matter of realpolitik, it has nothing to do with the fact we both speak English, or that we like you, it is simply a matter of power politics.

    We are fortunate that you are on the other side of the planet in another season, and that you delude yourselves that we are a little America or that we are trying to be a little America, whereas we have been able to maintain our own unique identity all this time and will into the future.

    The way you see America and the way we see America are quite different. Gun culture is a good example. We don't have a gun culture while America has a pathological gun culture. We have excluded American gun culture and the evil National Rifle Association from Australia by law, and this will never change.

    We see America dominate and even invade other countries without learning their language or their culture, and you don't treat us any differently, so we like to keep you at arms length, and this is easy with you being so far away. And your delusions make it easy.
    If there were an Australian version of Trump, you'd totally vote for him, as long as he said things similar to your words above. It doesn't stop being bigotry because you're certain that you're right: quite the opposite, in fact.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  8. #248
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    these days, you'd be better off worrying about your government's allowance of encryption protocols.
    In challenge lies opportunity.
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  9. #249
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Rampage/spree shootings are so rare that it's difficult to even measure a "rate" reliably. They get lots of attention, but I think that results in bad policy overall, because policy is then based on very rare crimes and stopping those, as opposed to very common crimes and stopping those.
    Yes. Politicians often feel they have to do something in the aftermath of these high-profile events, or at least look like they are doing something, even if that is a completely useless, ineffective, or counterproductive thing. Logic goes out the window in the emotionalism of the moment. Opponents are criticised by being reminded "but children DIED!!!". (their point . . . ?)

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    W/r to Coriolis' question, the same logic applies: crime rates have been going down, period, for over two decades. That makes it very difficult to show which policies are reducing crime, if any. My theory? Computer games! More and more young men who would be tempted to go on shooting sprees can instead harmlessly slaughter their friends (or computer AI) in virtual gunfights. Such virtual training, especially player vs player, teaches these same people how quickly they would die in a real gunfight. Hence, less gun crime and crime overall, as the adrenaline rush gets played out digitally. I can't prove my theory, but hey, it's pretty darn plausible, is it not?
    I think you are overestimating how well these folks are able (willing?) to extrapolate from fantasy to real life, but one can only hope.

    I am not personally as opposed to gun control measures as some of my statements might suggest. I do share the view that our rights are inherent, though, and should be curtailed by the government only to the extent necessary to allow others to exercise those same rights. If a gun control measure cannot be shown to have an impact on gun violence, it is therefore very difficult for me to support it unless as an experiment, e.g. the law automatically expires after some fixed period, say 5 or 10 years. If during that time it has shown itself to be effective, legislators can pass a permanent version. A solution that doesn't solve the problem isn't a solution.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  10. #250
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Thankfully Australia has the Liberal Democratic Party and Senator John Leyonhjelm.

    The Sydney Morning Herald

    "Liberal democratic senator David Leyonhjelm has appeared in a video for the National Rifle Association of America in which he describes Australia as a "nation of victims" because of the government's tough stance on gun control.

    In an interview, the anti-gun control senator warns the United States not to follow Australia's example after presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton said a gun buyback scheme similar to the one John Howard introduced in 1996 was worth considering."

    Senator Leyonhjelm, however, insisted in his interview that the Howard scheme had made "no difference to firearms violence, gun violence overall".

    "We are a nation of victims," he said.

    "The criminals still have guns, there's no shortage of guns. There's a very vigorous black market for guns, so it's really not made the slightest bit of difference."

    "It's a defenceless country these days. I am absolutely in awe of the success of the NRA at holding back the tide and it never gives an inch.

    "We love the NRA here in Australia amongst us gun owners and in fact we rely on you guys to also help us hold the line in Australia."

    'We are a nation of victims' pro-gun senator David Leyonhjelm tells NRA | smh.com.au
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
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