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  1. #221
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Why do I bother?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #222
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Why do I bother?
    Look, Beorn, you have a national ideology that is not shared by the rest of the world.

    Unfortunately your national ideology at a personal level is based on might is right, while we replaced might is right with the rule of law under the Justices of the Peace in 1687.

    This puts you at a disadvantage in liberal democracy because you can't argue for your national ideology but just stand over us with a gun.

  3. #223
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I deserve this
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #224
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamine View Post
    Nothing about needing to be armed all the time screams democracy to me.
    The U.S. would probably not exist as a nation were it not for the arms kept by the ordinary farmers and shopkeepers who became our Minutemen and Continental Army. It certainly would not have gained independence in 1783.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I am a Justice of the Peace and my forebears disarmed the militias on 25 May, 1687, creating the King's Peace. But the Americans not only got rid of the King, they also got rid of the King's Peace.
    Have you read our Declaration of Independence? It reads, in part:

    The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

    • He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
    • He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
    • He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
    • He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
    • He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
    • He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
    • He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
    • He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
    • He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
    • He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
    • He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
    • He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
    • He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
    • For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
    • For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
    • For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
    • For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
    • For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
    • For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
    • For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
    • For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
    • For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
    • He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
    • He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
    • He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
    • He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
    • He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.


    In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
    This hardly sounds like the King's Peace.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
    Likes SpankyMcFly liked this post

  5. #225
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The U.S. would probably not exist as a nation were it not for the arms kept by the ordinary farmers and shopkeepers who became our Minutemen and Continental Army. It certainly would not have gained independence in 1783.
    I'm not arguing the country's history, or the sacrifices made for democracy and freedom by all sorts of people, all over the world. I'm questioning why democracy and gun ownership are viewed as being mutually inclusive.
    "Beware Those Who Are ALWAYS READING BOOKS" - Bukowski

  6. #226
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The U.S. would probably not exist as a nation were it not for the arms kept by the ordinary farmers and shopkeepers who became our Minutemen and Continental Army. It certainly would not have gained independence in 1783.

    Have you read our Declaration of Independence? It reads, in part:

    This hardly sounds like the King's Peace.
    Your Declaration of Independence is plainly hysterical. It is special pleading. It is interesting from a psychological point of view in asking, where did the hysteria come from?

    It is plainly an adolescent rebellion against the Father, but so afraid of punishment (the British are coming) that you succumb to hysteria rather than reason.

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating: we applied reason and have had no gun massacres since 1996, while you applied hysteria and have a continuing festival of gun massacres.

  7. #227
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamine View Post
    I'm not arguing the country's history, or the sacrifices made for democracy and freedom by all sorts of people, all over the world. I'm questioning why democracy and gun ownership are viewed as being mutually inclusive.
    If you live in a society that is not a democracy, how much do you think posession of guns by the average citizen will improve the odds of overthrowing that government to form a democracy?

    Put another way: in a society that is not a democracy, how likely are citizens to be allowed to have guns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Your Declaration of Independence is plainly hysterical. It is special pleading. It is interesting from a psychological point of view in asking, where did the hysteria come from?

    It is plainly an adolescent rebellion against the Father, but so afraid of punishment (the British are coming) that you succumb to hysteria rather than reason.
    Well, that's a first. I have never seen someone call Thomas Jefferson hysterical before. It's not surprising you have so little regard for the U.S. then.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
    Likes SpankyMcFly liked this post

  8. #228
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If you live in a society that is not a democracy, how much do you think posession of guns by the average citizen will improve the odds of overthrowing that government to form a democracy?

    Put another way: in a society that is not a democracy, how likely are citizens to be allowed to have guns?
    Having spent time in countries without democracy (or functioning governments), this is their daily life. Access to weapons to protect their families against real, tanglible threats.

    Should we define America as an established democracy, or should we be more concerned?

    There is crime in America, just as there is crime every where else. How can other democratic countries function without civilian gun ownership, while America cannot?
    "Beware Those Who Are ALWAYS READING BOOKS" - Bukowski

  9. #229
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Well, that's a first. I have never seen someone call Thomas Jefferson hysterical before. It's not surprising you have so little regard for the U.S. then.
    Perhaps we should speak realpolitik.

    Oz is a mercantile nation, an island, whose life blood is trade. For instance, in WW I a German raider of only one ship, ably commanded, put a stop to all trade with Australia.

    Since then we have noted who commands the seas around Australia and we closely ally ourselves with them.

    The USA has ten, count them, aircraft carrier battle fleets, in the oceans around Australia.

    Of course USA protection comes at a price. And the price we pay is fighting in all of America's wars, supporting America politically, buying American arms, allowing America a surplus trading account, and hey, being besties.

    Yes, when an American battle fleet sails into Sydney Harbour, they let it be known that just one aircraft carrier could destroy our airforce in one fell swoop, and then the Admiral, resplendent in Whites, fronts the cameras at Circular Quay and tells us how much he loves Australia an Australians, and when he leaves we wonder what you really think of us.

  10. #230
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamine View Post
    Having spent time in countries without democracy (or functioning governments), this is their daily life. Access to weapons to protect their families against real, tanglible threats.

    Should we define America as an established democracy, or should we be more concerned?

    There is crime in America, just as there is crime every where else. How can other democratic countries function without civilian gun ownership, while America cannot?
    Well, sure - I can understand the presence of guns in a situation of anarchy. Our democracy didn't come out of anarchy, though, but rather out of monarchy - tyranny, to use Thomas Jefferson's expression. America is both an established democracy, and a cause for concern. Notwithstanding the high profile instances of gun violence in recent times, though, I would put other concerns much higher in priority than figuring out whether and how it might make sense to work guns out of our system. It should be noted that few other democracies have the vast open spaces we do, and areas of very low population density with ranches, farmland, etc. Even though we have plenty of cities and suburbs now as well, this explains part of our "gun legacy". For instance, I live in an urban area, and know several people who still go away from the city to hunt, for food their families will actually consume through the year. This is partly a family tradition, partly a sport/hobby, and partly a way to provide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Yes, when an American battle fleet sails into Sydney Harbour, they let it be known that just one aircraft carrier could destroy our airforce in one fell swoop, and then the Admiral, resplendent in Whites, fronts the cameras at Circular Quay and tells us how much he loves Australia an Australians, but when he leaves we wonder what you really think of us.
    Well, if your countrymen share your estimation of Thomas Jefferson and his compatriots, I would say your view of US history is at best myopic. A colleague from Australia will be visiting me next week. I will have to ask him what his opinion is. Of course my knowledge of Australian history is extremely limited, but then again I don't make such pronouncements about figures from Australian history.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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