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Thread: Bergdahl Deal

  1. #51
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Whether he was a traitor or not, he was still an American and innocent until proven guilty so I would agree with the decision to bring him back. Ultimately, who gives a shit if we gave back 5 guys. There are tons and tons of guys out there that are pretty much allowed to walk around even knowing that they're "bad guys" because of various rules and regulations, and we're about to leave the country anyways, leaving who knows how many potential insurgents. Despite all of the reasonable sounding arguments people are making for not making the trade, I don't think people would be complaining if it wasn't for the traitor accusation. The thing is, what's even worse than giving up prisoners for a traitor is prejudging criminal guilt. No single person or punishment is worth giving up a fundamental American right.
    100% this. It's hard not to make assumptions.. I know it is. Even if you look at what you think is all the evidence. There was a court case involving one of the soldiers we knew in Africa recently, where his wife and unborn child were allegedly murdered. There was a trial going on.. and everyone was immediately saying, "What a sick sumbitch" and "I can't believe I shook that guy's hand what a total waste of space" etc etc. Before he was even convicted. The evidence was mounted against him, and the trial did end in a guilty verdict.. but it was sad to see how many people really wanted him to be guilty long before they knew for sure.. And the big problem with that is--if he were found innocent, no one would believe it after deciding that in their heads.

    If it were Murph no one would be complaining--they'd be saying he's worth all of Gtmo. It seems like a give-in that Americans come first to America.
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  2. #52
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    100% this. It's hard not to make assumptions.. I know it is. Even if you look at what you think is all the evidence. There was a court case involving one of the soldiers we knew in Africa recently, where his wife and unborn child were allegedly murdered. There was a trial going on.. and everyone was immediately saying, "What a sick sumbitch" and "I can't believe I shook that guy's hand what a total waste of space" etc etc. Before he was even convicted. The evidence was mounted against him, and the trial did end in a guilty verdict.. but it was sad to see how many people really wanted him to be guilty long before they knew for sure.. And the big problem with that is--if he were found innocent, no one would believe it after deciding that in their heads.
    You both are right, but it works both ways and we probably wouldn't even be discussing this if Susan Rice didn't make the assumption that Bergdahl was taken from the battlefield and served with honor and distinction or if Obama didn't assume Bergdahl's parents were entitled to the honor of a rose garden visit. Statements and actions they have both refused to backpedal on.

    The criticism is a reaction to the assumptions of the administration.

  3. #53
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You both are right, but it works both ways and we probably wouldn't even be discussing this if Susan Rice didn't make the assumption that Bergdahl was taken from the battlefield and served with honor and distinction or if Obama didn't assume Bergdahl's parents were entitled to the honor of a rose garden visit. Statements and actions they have both refused to backpedal on.

    The criticism is a reaction to the assumptions of the administration.
    They're not assumptions though. They're fact. You ARE innocent until proven guilty--you aren't assumed innocent. That means even if there was a cat-in-the-bag trial, and tons of evidence to convict this guy, the trial would still go as planned, and until then he'd be treated as if innocent--meaning the trade, the rose garden, all of that. Even if he was proven guilty of desertion before, we'd probably still want him back in our own hands for trial. We make trades with other countries for guilty-as-fuck dudes doing heinous crimes because we want to try them in our country through our justice system. That's the way it's been for a long time now.

    The only assumptions made are by the American people right now, saying, "Oh, they're doing x because of y" or "Why would they trade a traitor?" As if they all totally want those Taliban leaders vs their own blood. and it's just insane how much Americans have such a deep rooted hatred for the Taliban, terrorists and unfortunately muslims in general that we'd rate ANY one American over them in preference, unless it's this particular guy who's suddenly not 'worth 5 leaders of the taliban'. Doesn't make any sense to me, any of it.
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  4. #54
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    They're not assumptions though. They're fact. You ARE innocent until proven guilty--you aren't assumed innocent. That means even if there was a cat-in-the-bag trial, and tons of evidence to convict this guy, the trial would still go as planned, and until then he'd be treated as if innocent--meaning the trade, the rose garden, all of that.
    There's a difference between how someone is officially dealt with by the administration and what terms are wise to use when referring to them in public remarks. I don't think any soldier is entitled to having an administration official praise them on tv or have their parents invited to the rose garden. They might deserve it, but they're not entitled. Yes, innocent until proven guilty, but there is a question because as even you say there should be a trial. Given that there's a question and a lack of entitlement it's not appropriate to bestow honor and praise given the potential of a determination of dishonorable conduct.

    Do you really think when abu ghraib soldiers were in the news it would have been appropriate for Bush Administration officials to go around sunday news shows saying that they served with honor and distinction? They were innocent at the time.

  5. #55
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    ...I don't think any soldier is entitled to having an administration official praise them on tv or have their parents invited to the rose garden. They might deserve it, but they're not entitled.
    If he was a hero, and captured for 5 years, I'd be surprised if someone somewhere didn't invite the family for something. He's not ENTITLED to his parents visiting the rose garden--but it's a courtesy I would not be surprised to see shown to a family who's had their son missing for 5 years. Despite the trial, and/or if he is proven innocent of desertion, I'd find it a little hokey for someone to say to me, "Oh..uh.. so now that we believe you and your son isn't guilty, do you want to come with us while we treat you to a complimentary dinner at chili's?" If I was accused of something terrible, it'd be terribly presumptuous of someone to abstain from acknowledging my entire family until the results were given. It implies guilt. Which we don't want to imply, because there is a trial to be had.

    Do you really think when abu ghraib soldiers were in the news it would have been appropriate for Bush Administration officials to go around sunday news shows saying that they served with honor and distinction? They were innocent at the time.
    Unlike this situation, the soldiers there were arrested... They weren't held as captives with a gray story line. They were discovered doing something terrible. There has to be a degree of common sense somewhere here. There wasn't a huge shock to anyone that they were to be guilty--they had photographic evidence of atrocities being done, because they were discovered doing them. We lack pretty much all of that here--a lot of speculation, hearsay from soldiers that didn't think it was worrisome at the time but DEFINITELY know that he's a total shitbag now magically (Ohhh no, you mean the guy that kept threatening to leave because we weren't helping him left because we didn't help him?! How could we have known?! What a dirtbag! Listen to all the things that didn't send red flags at us before but are totally evidence now!), and some mail. Also we have FIVE YEARS spent as a captive. Which I am sure, since he accepted being traded, that he was NOT enjoying nor participating in.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    I fully support the exchange...as pointed out, we have made these exchanges throughout the course of history. I see Bergdahl as a POW until I get further information to the contrary, and even if he did desert, I support getting back a POW. We are criticizing a young man who certainly saw horrific acts of violence from both sides, most likely needed mental health intervention and didn't receive it.

    It is wrong for me to judge his actions when I have never been in a war zone and I don't know the facts, nor do the critics. I think it is shameful and reprehensible for the GOP to criticize Bergdahl and Obama's decision...McCain even flip-flopped on his opinion of the exchange so he could join the chorus of Republicans who have never served in the military and judge a young soldier's actions knowing nothing. His platoon may be angry at Bergdahl for leaving but he did leave once before and return...I think he should have gotten some intervention before walking off again in a war zone.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Do you really think when abu ghraib soldiers were in the news it would have been appropriate for Bush Administration officials to go around sunday news shows saying that they served with honor and distinction? They were innocent at the time.
    Not at all the same.
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  8. #58
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    I'd be pissed if I were American. Terrorists don't "retire", you know. And those were some of the most dangerous ones. After the inhumane treatment they have received in Guantanamo (which is a mistake, but you can't fix a mistake with an even bigger mistake), chances are their hate for USA even increased. Their stories of horror might be able to convince even more people to join the cause.

    Besides, that was inevitable:

    Taliban commander warns of more kidnappings after Bowe Bergdahl - TIME

    Obama gets away with everything. Most people don't even get surprised anymore.

  9. #59
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    After the inhumane treatment they have received in Guantanamo (which is a mistake, but you can't fix a mistake with an even bigger mistake), chances are their hate for USA even increased.
    Right after taking office in January 2009 Obama signed an executive order to close Guantanamo. And yet it is still in operation 5+ years later.
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  10. #60
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Right after taking office in January 2009 Obama signed an executive order to close Guantanamo. And yet it is still in operation 5+ years later.
    tsk tsk

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