User Tag List

First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 60

Thread: Bergdahl Deal

  1. #31
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,881

    Default

    Nico's right on the point of the soldiers dying, absolutely. The guys at Black Hawk Down's site didn't get blamed when the helicopter crashed. This guy isn't the cause of them dying--they would have had to do the same thing if he was truly kidnapped. It's the way it goes. It's an emotional outlash, and for sure it's warranted--I'd be upset too if my son was killed trying to save someone that didn't want to be saved even though he knew military policies and standards. But that's what soldiers sign up for. Dangerous things, that lead to death somtimes.

    So far as the man himself.. Everything I see on him says traitor/deserter. I don't know why one person would be kidnapped without another in pain/agony/kidnapped as well.. since the battle buddy system is rule number 1 in the military. But I know that his higher ups probably didn't take proper steps and measures--they should have taken his comments and shit way more seriously than they did, and pulled him into some desk job where he could be constantly monitored long before anything like that happened. He was claiming CO, and somehow that didn't send off all kinds of red flags in and of itself? I doubt it.

    Anyone who thinks anyone higher up on the totem pole doesn't have far more information to make the situation less crazy looking is out of their league. There are so many things in the military machine going on... civilians only see the clock and hear it chime. Most don't understand the way the mechanisms work, and still others don't understand the precise science behind it all. There's a lot going on there, regardless of how efficient you think our military/government is or is not.

    What I don't understand about the whole matter is--why didn't we kidnap him back? He was literally located in an area we knew quite well--well enough for a black ops mission to nab his ass back and put him on the stands without giving up any terrorists. But, then again, I'm not up high enough for those points.

    I hope they do a trial, and I'll resist calling him anything traitor-like until I see a decision made.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  2. #32
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,809

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I hope they do a trial, and I'll resist calling him anything traitor-like until I see a decision made.
    Despite my criticism of how Obama has dealt with this I wouldn't care if he got a pardon as long as there isn't evidence that he was willingly trying to help them. 5 years as a Taliban captive is probably enough punishment.

  3. #33
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,663

    Default

    My concern, as a laymen civvy, is the precedent this sends to our enemies: That we're willing to negotiate with terrorists.

    I'm glad the guy is home and with his family again...but I'm worried about the long term consequences of this action in dealings with terrorist organizations in the future.

    My opinion is that this was either a REALLY bad judgement call by the Obama Administration...or there is something else going on, something we're not being made aware of that, and they (the Obama Admin) are being really sneaky bastards and have something up their sleeve.

    BUT...as a layman civvy, I don't think I'm wrong for thinking this was an awesomely bad move.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  4. #34
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,809

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Nico's right on the point of the soldiers dying, absolutely.
    You guys come to the same conclusion, but you're not in agreement as far as I can tell. Nico's argument seemed to be that there was no obligation to save him and that he didn't want to be saved so it wasn't his fault they died. Your argument seemed to be that the soldiers are obligated no matter the situation so he's not to blame.

    My argument is that while soldiers are called on to risk their lives everyday in Afghanistan there does seem to be a difference when their activities revolve around trying to a save an alleged deserter as opposed to someone who's chopper crashed.

    A lot of the details of the actual movements of the troops is probably lost somewhat to the fog of war and potentially the platoon members made emotional responses and maybe didn't have the exact facts about the activities of the other soldiers at their time of death.

    Still I would say if we knew the exact facts and the situation passes a but-for test then there is some moral culpability on Bergdahl: But for Bergdahl willfully deserting those other soldiers wouldn't have been where they were attacked and killed. It's completely foreseeable that other soldiers would come look for any deserter.

    I still think that Nico's argument of a lack of obligation is ridiculous, but Kyuuei, your argument is far more intriguing the more I think about it. What would be interesting is to compare it to other official capacities where people's duties put them in danger anyway. I can't think of anything directly analogous to deserting, but of course anyone who robbed a bank or started a fire would be held criminally responsible for the death of an officer or fireman even as an indirect result of the robbery or arson. Of course, while desertion is one of the most significant violations of the military code it is fundamentally a non-violent act which separates it from felony murder, but of course we're also not talking about crime here either. So i do think moral culpability can extend to this situation given the foreseeability.

    But, I won't quibble with anyone any further if they see it differently and use a different moral calculus.

  5. #35
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,881

    Default

    The difference is soldiers are property. It's a unique trait career wise. Soldiers are expendable, and we recite daily how we're willing to give our lives for our country. We don't specify whether the orders are honorable missions of adventure and history or blowing up while buying a soda at the wrong shop on our day off from patrol. All military deaths are done in honor whether they were looking for a shit bag private or a hero.

    Nico is looking at it from the guy's perspective. It's a real potential thought process. It is potentially the privates fault he left. It isn't his fault they died despite his actions.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  6. #36
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,839

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The difference is soldiers are property. It's a unique trait career wise. Soldiers are expendable, and we recite daily how we're willing to give our lives for our country. We don't specify whether the orders are honorable missions of adventure and history or blowing up while buying a soda at the wrong shop on our day off from patrol. All military deaths are done in honor whether they were looking for a shit bag private or a hero.

    Nico is looking at it from the guy's perspective. It's a real potential thought process. It is potentially the privates fault he left. It isn't his fault they died despite his actions.
    Yeah, what that person said ^^^ (she won the buttox award, ya know)
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  7. #37
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,881

    Default

    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  8. #38
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Nico's right on the point of the soldiers dying, absolutely. The guys at Black Hawk Down's site didn't get blamed when the helicopter crashed. This guy isn't the cause of them dying--they would have had to do the same thing if he was truly kidnapped.
    The difference is that being kidnapped or crashing a helicopter are not crimes that initiated an easily foreseen chain of events (other soldiers dying while searching for a missing soldier). It is in this sense that Berdahl is responsible for the death of those soldiers, much like a drunk driver is responsible for deaths resulting from his illegal actions, as opposed to, say, someone obeying traffic laws who hit a child who suddenly ran onto the road.

  9. #39
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    626

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    How on earth can it be his fault these people died?

    A: I don't want anything to do with this shit anymore. I'm leaving.
    B: No, you're not.
    A: Yes, I am.
    B: We're hunting you down, pal.
    A: Leave me the fuck alone!

    B-H die on the hunt.

    I: A killed 'em!
    We're (that is to say, military personnel) all briefed on what will happen should we go missing. As America is not keen on having any of its soldiers beheaded, if a soldier, sailor, Marine, or airman goes missing, a big hunt is immediately started. Your logic, while solid, is based on the point that Bergdahl didn't know this, and that the military is an organization one can voluntarily drop at any time. When you are going through the recruiting/selection process, it is made very clear that until you reach your contract's limits, you are to adhere to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and that you are not allowed to simply go unaccounted for, let alone in a combat environment. You have to acknowledge this several times, and are given several opportunities to end the process and not go through with your enlistment. So he knew what he had to do, and what his responsibilities are.
    A serviceman's chief responsibilities is to his fellow servicemembers. It is unbelievably irresponsible and selfish to knowingly walk off base, especially if it's clearly stated that any personnel missing will have a rescue effort mounted to search for and retrieve them. What he did put several of his fellow servicemembers in danger, left his parents in fear, and forced the U.S. to enter this bargaining phase. I'll be honest, there are servicemembers who are dissatisfied with the military, but they vent this dissatisfaction through counting down the days to their enlistment's end, not by walking off.
    His irresponsible actions led to the deaths of those men. So, as I said, it's hard for servicemen to have much sympathy for him because of this.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Ego Reparate; Ob Me Non Deficiat.
    INTJ - RCOEI - sx/sp/so - Tritype: 683 (6w5-8w9-3w4) - True Neutral
    "Yeah, wisdom always chooses/These black eyes and these bruises"
    "Over the heartache that they say/Never completely goes away..."

  10. #40
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Is this guy a real life Nicholas Brody?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 370
    Last Post: 02-07-2016, 09:54 PM
  2. [NT] NTs, how do you deal with Reality...
    By rivercrow in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 06-15-2010, 08:45 AM
  3. [MBTItm] Here is a really cool test dealing with symbolisms.
    By ladypinkington in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 09-05-2009, 08:09 PM
  4. [NF] NFs, how do you deal with Thinking...
    By SolitaryWalker in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 83
    Last Post: 01-27-2009, 10:34 PM
  5. Why drug dealing should be legalized...
    By The Ü™ in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 08-10-2007, 02:21 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO