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  1. #11
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    The picture at the link you posted above is pretty disturbing. I kind of wish I hadn't seen it. Poor little guy. Unfortunately, I feel like most people would still put the blame on his parents for being in a place where drugs were sold, even though they were only there because their house burned down and they came to live with family until they could get back on their feet.

  2. #12
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I wonder how many baby casualties it would take for the pro-lifers to get as upset about the drug war as they get about abortion. Actually, that has me thinking...you know how pro-lifers like to show people pictures of aborted fetuses. I wonder if doing something similar with young drug raid victims would be effective. My stomach turns even typing that because it seems really explotative, so there's no way I would ever do it, but I wonder if it would be effective. Most people aren't swayed by logical arguments. It's appeals to emotion that really change most people's minds.
    Emotional pleading in this regard never seems to work. There are anti-abortionist groups that come to my university once or twice a year and put up a lot of graphic images to shock people and get them to feel guilty and see their side. All it does is make pro-choicers show up and completely ream them (shouting included). What students end up doing is posting signs saying they are there, and pretty much no one walks through the quad to avoid them. Thus completely defeating their purpose.

    PETA did something similar recently but the response to them was rather different.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    You know, in this country we talk a lot about entitlement, and yet it seems that we have a level of law-enforcement entitlement that outdoes pretty much any other stable modern western democracy in epic fashion, and without apology. This sort of incident really should not be surprising at all. Police can basically do whatever the hell they want, and if they go to far, say stopping a suspect that led them on a chase, find them to not be a threat, and stand on the hood of the suspect's stopped car and fire 15 shots into the windshield...you get manslaughter charges for a crime that would land anyone else on death row.
    6 Cleveland officers indicted in deadly car chase - seattlepi.com

    What happens in these cases? Everyone forgets by next week. This shouldn't surprise us. If you don't have money or know the right people, you simply don't matter as a human life anymore. It's not your vote that doesn't matter, your opinions, or your job, but your life. And this trend doesn't seem to be headed in a positive direction. As fewer people control more wealth, and more people are over-qualified for jobs that exist, your economic value decreases, and to a degree, this is how fellow citizens who don't personally know you judge you as a whole.

    In sum: the system is fucked, you don't matter, and you're not safe. This, the recently sort-of addressed issue of misogyny, race, sexuality- they are all ways of picking those who *really matter* and those who are worth less.

    /angry rant over
    Jarlaxle: fact checking this thread makes me want to go all INFP on my wrists

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  4. #14
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain curmudgeon View Post
    You know, in this country we talk a lot about entitlement, and yet it seems that we have a level of law-enforcement entitlement that outdoes pretty much any other stable modern western democracy in epic fashion, and without apology. This sort of incident really should not be surprising at all. Police can basically do whatever the hell they want, and if they go to far, say stopping a suspect that led them on a chase, find them to not be a threat, and stand on the hood of the suspect's stopped car and fire 15 shots into the windshield...you get manslaughter charges for a crime that would land anyone else on death row.
    6 Cleveland officers indicted in deadly car chase - seattlepi.com

    What happens in these cases? Everyone forgets by next week. This shouldn't surprise us. If you don't have money or know the right people, you simply don't matter as a human life anymore. It's not your vote that doesn't matter, your opinions, or your job, but your life. And this trend doesn't seem to be headed in a positive direction. As fewer people control more wealth, and more people are over-qualified for jobs that exist, your economic value decreases, and to a degree, this is how fellow citizens who don't personally know you judge you as a whole.

    In sum: the system is fucked, you don't matter, and you're not safe. This, the recently sort-of addressed issue of misogyny, race, sexuality- they are all ways of picking those who *really matter* and those who are worth less.

    /angry rant over
    yup. this what I meant by society is fucked up
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  5. #15
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    This family doesn't have insurance, and someone has set up a gofundme site to pay the baby's medical expenses. To me it really seems like the county should step up to pay for it. I'm sure there will be a suit and/or a settlement eventually, though.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain curmudgeon View Post
    You know, in this country we talk a lot about entitlement, and yet it seems that we have a level of law-enforcement entitlement that outdoes pretty much any other stable modern western democracy in epic fashion, and without apology. This sort of incident really should not be surprising at all. Police can basically do whatever the hell they want, and if they go to far, say stopping a suspect that led them on a chase, find them to not be a threat, and [Istand on the hood of the suspect's stopped car and fire 15 shots into the windshield[/I]...you get manslaughter charges for a crime that would land anyone else on death row.
    6 Cleveland officers indicted in deadly car chase - seattlepi.com

    What happens in these cases? Everyone forgets by next week. This shouldn't surprise us. If you don't have money or know the right people, you simply don't matter as a human life anymore. It's not your vote that doesn't matter, your opinions, or your job, but your life. And this trend doesn't seem to be headed in a positive direction. As fewer people control more wealth, and more people are over-qualified for jobs that exist, your economic value decreases, and to a degree, this is how fellow citizens who don't personally know you judge you as a whole.

    In sum: the system is fucked, you don't matter, and you're not safe. This, the recently sort-of addressed issue of misogyny, race, sexuality- they are all ways of picking those who *really matter* and those who are worth less.

    /angry rant over
    I'm not surprised by anything the police do anymore, but I still find it horrifying. If this was my child, I would want blood, blood I'm certain the justice system would not give me.

    As for your comments about society in general, I disagree. I think it's really easy to have a warped view of society. We have access to so much more information than in the past. One way this manifests itself is with Stranger Danger. It's easy to get the impression that there's a pedophile lurking around every corner if you pay enough attention to the media. As a result, many people are hyper-protective of their children, despite the fact that there has never been safer time to raise a child. I also think our wealth gives us a lot of free time to think about how "shitty" things are. Our ancestors were too busy trying to survive to spend much time thinking about how shitty their lives were.

    I'm not saying everything is perfect. Far from it. But we have it better than our ancestors, and most relevant trends are headed in the right direction.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #17
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    This family doesn't have insurance, and someone has set up a gofundme site to pay the baby's medical expenses. To me it really seems like the county should step up to pay for it. I'm sure there will be a suit and/or a settlement eventually, though.
    It's not really fair for taxpayers to pay for it. It should come out of the paychecks of the police officers involved.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #18
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I'm not surprised by anything the police do anymore, but I still find it horrifying. If this was my child, I would want blood, blood I'm certain the justice system would not give me.

    As for your comments about society in general, I disagree. I think it's really easy to have a warped view of society. We have access to so much more information than in the past. One way this manifests itself is with Stranger Danger. It's easy to get the impression that there's a pedophile lurking around every corner if you pay enough attention to the media. As a result, many people are hyper-protective of their children, despite the fact that there has never been safer time to raise a child. I also think our wealth gives us a lot of free time to think about how "shitty" things are. Our ancestors were too busy trying to survive to spend much time thinking about how shitty their lives were.

    I'm not saying everything is perfect. Far from it. But we have it better than our ancestors, and most relevant trends are headed in the right direction.
    I suspect that this true to a large degree. I also suspect that much of the sentiment I expressed relates in some way to recent trends in the American economy- indeed, I think most Americans would agree that on some level, the economic downturn has led them to feel more vulnerable, less needed, and less valuable.

    What concerns me, though- and I suspect this is partly due to the fact that I have a penchant for always finding that thing that *needs improved because it's bad* are the trends that are not getting better, and haven't been for some time- for instance, the relative worth of wages or education, or, particularly, a recent study that came out that says American's are now the least trusting they've been in recent history (Poll Reveals Americans Don't Trust Each Other Anymore)
    What concerns me about these, particularly the last, is that they are rather counterintuitive, seemingly caused by ourselves, and yet we seem to know this and have little drive to change how things are. What happens if we change nothing, and are still telling ourselves 50 years from now that spending 40k on college is a must for every kid, that supermarket workers don't deserve to afford basic living necessities, and that one of our neighbors is probably a molester? Trust, a somewhat economically (and mentally) secure workforce, and community are huge underpinnings to any well-functioning society, and while the things you pointed out do seem on the up-and-up, I'm not sure how much that will matter if these don't take a turn for the better as well.
    Jarlaxle: fact checking this thread makes me want to go all INFP on my wrists

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  9. #19
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I think the trust issues ultimately stem from our technology advancing far faster than humans evolve, socially. We're still mostly tribal hunter-gatherers.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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