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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #561
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    my point is a 3 fold, so i'll try to organize it better accordingly:

    1st layer:

    assumption: as members of the CRC (counter-rape-culture) we view the low conviction rates for suspected rape cases as a major social & cultural problem to be fixed.

    however, as long as prison rape is a common phenomena, then increasing conviction rates on ANYTHING (regardless if innocent or not) increases the number of people who are introduced into a system in which they are likely to get raped - when calling to increase conviction rates on anything, you are, for all practical matters, advocating a social change in which more people[/B] be placed in a position where they [B]are likely to get raped. as long as conviction and the likely state of getting raped have direct a cause and affect relationship, advocating for more of the cause also advocating for more of the affect.

    2nd layer:

    now let's put the question of whether it's justifiable aside - and instead just leave the point that there's a choice involved - after all, you have the power to just stay out of prison by choosing to not commit any crime to began with...
    or alternatively:


    the problem with that is that this assumption:

    is only as trustworthy as the extent that we are willing to hold a high bar for what constitutes proof beyond reasonable doubt.

    however, if we make it our goal is to increase the conviction rates on ANYTHING, and the blame (and thus pressure to change) for the lack of convictions is placed not just on the practical process of investigation & evidence gathering but rather on society and culture and thus the process through which we determine the bar for what constitutes as proof to began with, then we are unavoidably also pressuring to lower the bar of evidence for said crime. as a result, we are calling for more innocent people to be in prison. and in conjunction with point 1, you are calling for more innocent people to get raped.

    3rd layer:

    the moment we demand an increase conviction rate for innocent people, this:

    becomes self defeating; we are effectively calling for removing the question of whether you've chosen to commit a crime, and instead replacing it with the question of whether someone has chose to prosecute you for a crime - we are shifting the influence over the result from the 1st variable to the 2nd, from your agency to that of others. essentially, you are trying to justify the demand to take away the power to avoid a result by claiming that people have the power to avoid the result.

    (i hope this clarified my point)
    Your reorganization does make it much clearer. There are at least three underlying problems here, which are distinct, but linked together in the nature of our justice system:

    1. Reducing violent crime overall
    2. Improving the ability of the justice system to distinguish the guilty from the innocent
    3. Increasing reporting of crime, especially violent crime like rape, and support of victims

    Presumably the main goal we all want is (1). Not only does this reduce the number of victims and make society safer and more pleasant (less fear), it also reduces the number of people in prison. (3) contributes to (1) in that an unreported crime is unlikely to be punished, and the perpetrator remains free to offend again. (2) contributes to (1) by directing criminals to prison, while leaving the innocent at large. This brings us back to the prison subset of (1), in that by confining criminals - especially violent ones - to prison, we are simply concentrating and containing violence in prisons, rather than allowing it to run rampant in society. As least that is one of the intentions.

    Assuming (2) and (3) were done perfectly, prisons would have even more criminals, who prey on each other through rape, beatings, and other acts of violence and domination. This leads to a fourth concern, actually: the nature of the prison system. Balancing the often competing goals of punishment, rehabilitation, and containment has long been a matter of debate. I do not agree that being raped or beaten is an acceptable part of a convict's punishment. The victim blaming comparison with rape outside prison is not valid, however, since people become exposed to prison rape by first committing a crime themselves (using assumption 2), while the revealing dress, flirtatious manner, and sexual habits often cited in blaming women rape victims are not crimes at all. If the only way to keep a convicted rapist from being raped himself in prison is not to send him there, that is unacceptable.

    So, we increase reporting of rape, and improve the judicial process better to identify the guilty. As I mentioned before, I would add to that using alternative sentencing options for nonviolent offenders, so fewer of them go to jail. Rape and other violence in prison is best addressed as part of overall prison reform, while rape in the general population must be addressed differently due to significant differences in the environment, for instance the ability to leverage the involvement of bystanders and the higher aspects of social approbation.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #562
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    I read your post @Coriolis, with interest and was heartened to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This leads to a fourth concern, actually: the nature of the prison system. Balancing the often competing goals of punishment, rehabilitation, and containment has long been a matter of debate. I do not agree that being raped or beaten is an acceptable part of a convict's punishment.
    Couldn't agree more. Values & morals aside, do people even consider the fact that the vast majority of felons actually LEAVE prison at some point and rejoin society and the "practical" implications of that? (rhetorical question)

    Which was immediately followed by:

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The victim blaming comparison with rape outside prison is not valid, however, since people become exposed to prison rape by first committing a crime themselves (using assumption 2), while the revealing dress, flirtatious manner, and sexual habits often cited in blaming women rape victims are not crimes at all.
    Victim blaming occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially responsible for the harm that befell them. Victim blaming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    By defining the nature of the action, criminal behavior vs. non criminal behavior, that got the victim into the circumstance you are engaging in "classification" using terms like guilty/criminal vs. innocent victim/lawful behavior. This classification is the first step to dehumanization. I am at a loss frankly when I factor for the prior statement above, to explain this 2nd quote. The only thing that comes to mind is the context of your comment, "The victim blaming comparison with rape outside prison is not valid,..." Could the incongruity of the two "classes" be at work?




    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If the only way to keep a convicted rapist from being raped himself in prison is not to send him there, that is unacceptable.
    That's some extrapolation

    "Holding criminals accountable is part of what it means to treat them as human beings, as moral agents. But the dignity of human persons, in their victimhood as well as their victimization, also means that there are limits to forms of punishment or to acceptable contexts for incarceration. It also means that imprisonment is not the final word, even in cases of life sentences. Inmates are still people, and therefore need to be treated as such, with all the challenges and potential that face all human persons." ~ Jordan J Ballor

    How does this pertain to "rape culture"?

    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
    Likes asynartetic liked this post

  3. #563
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    How extensively do American prisons use security cameras? Surely the only way to stop the raping is to make it impossible to do without getting caught?

  4. #564
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    How extensively do American prisons use security cameras? Surely the only way to stop the raping is to make it impossible to do without getting caught?
    Their design has a lot to do with it. The cell opening is often not directly visible to guards (old but prevalent design) and this is done to give inmates a modicum of "privacy". This is low hanging fruit but costly $$$. In time the idea is to redesign prisons to reduce inmate violence and rape by having the cells all face a central guard station. Cameras (CCTV) are not cheap and this is the reason given for not making their use more prevalent. As it stands currently, some states are refusing to enact the federal PREA recommendations (took them 10 years to come up with these) citing states rights & cost. They will lose 5% of their federal prison funding as a consequence.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #565
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solipsists View Post
    A friend of mine has devoted recent years to studying and sharing information about the sex industry (largely that participation is often non-consensual) and rape culture, which I applaud. I think signal-boosting ugly truths is a large part of the solution.[/B]
    Could you elaborate on this please? Specifically what truths are you signal boosting?

    Thanks!
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #566
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Victim blaming occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially responsible for the harm that befell them. Victim blaming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    By defining the nature of the action, criminal behavior vs. non criminal behavior, that got the victim into the circumstance you are engaging in "classification" using terms like guilty/criminal vs. innocent victim/lawful behavior. This classification is the first step to dehumanization. I am at a loss frankly when I factor for the prior statement above, to explain this 2nd quote. The only thing that comes to mind is the context of your comment, "The victim blaming comparison with rape outside prison is not valid,..." Could the incongruity of the two "classes" be at work?
    The use of the word blame includes a moral dimension. I am speaking of simple cause and effect. There is a "class" of people who leave their car unlocked, and perhaps even the keys in it, and are more likely to be a victim of car theft. There are people who have a poor diet and don't exercise, and have a heart attack when they are barely 50. It is a simple fact that our own choices influence what we experience in life, and people who don't land in prison are not subject to prison rape. If they are men, this drastically reduces the odds of their being raped at all.

    Women, by contrast, do not have one simple and obvious thing they can do to avoid rape. All the classic elements of "victim blaming" here - appearance, sexual behavior, interaction style, time of day, etc. - have been shown not to correlate well to rape outcomes.

    Another observation that highlights rape culture relative to these two environments: people generally understand that rape is prevalent in prisons; many, however, try to deny its prevalence on the outside. They try to portray rape experiences as something other than rape. This denial is an important element of rape culture. Prison rape is not part of this rape culture. It is part of a prison culture of violence. As I already mentioned, both need to be addressed, and will likely require different measures to do so effectively. Trying to lump it all together is thus counterproductive.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    because to date, "rape culture" has had about this much | | to do with prison rape. Which leads many to the obvious question, why is that?
    See above.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #567
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Didn't want to resurrect this thread, but it seemed a better alternative than starting a new one to post this:


    Egyptian Man Disguised As Woman Harassed, Document Sexual Abuse (VIDEO)

    It's a documentary done by a male journalist in Egypt to document what exactly harassment in the streets for women looks like. It's quite an eye-opening experience to him, or so he comments later on.

    shortened version of the video:



    "I can go wherever I want, do whatever I want very simply, very easily, very casually," Hammad said. "For a woman, it boils down to her having to focus on how she breathes while she is walking. It is not just the walk. It is not just the clothes. It is not what she says or how she looks."

    As a woman walking down the street, "you have to be in a constant state of alertness."
    For me, where I grew up, what is filmed here was pretty close to my experience with 'foreign men' when they stopped me in the street (belgians only do this when drunk and in a bar, ime). Not sure if it's the same for women in the States.



    Disclaimer: Anycase, just sharing for those interested. I'm not interested in restarting the debate as such.



    Edit: found this today - can't say it's reassuring.


    Uk Judge calls raping a drunk girl not classic rape, just an unfortunate circumstance where the guy couldn't restrain himself.

    ..when a judge doesn't even know what rape is and excuses it that easily, it does make you wonder if society in general recognises it when they see it. Somehow wanting something and taking it when the circumstances allow you to do so instead of just forcing those circumstances doesn't make you a danger to society. It's just a silly mistake.

    And that guy gets out in 5 years. Let's hope he is never attracted to anyone ever again. I feel for the next girl that dares to enjoy a drink around him.

    Guess it isn't that easy to identify who is and isn't considered a rapist, after all. Even if everyone agrees in principle that the concept of rape is very clearly wrong.

    Certainly makes you think twice about reporting something that isn't even considered a serious crime apparently.
    Last edited by Amargith; 07-07-2014 at 11:33 AM.
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