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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
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    18 27.69%
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  1. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You supplied the sources; I merely quoted from them. The problem of prison rape is obvious, as is one solution: stay out of jail. The fact that men in this small (~0.7%) and rarefied minority experience rape at a rate orders of magnitude higher than do men in the general population says nothing about rape as an issue for women. Prison data skew the results used in understanding and addressing rape in society at large, and different measures will be needed to address rape effectively in the two environments: one populated primarily by peaceable, law-abiding citizens; the other primarily by criminals.
    Why is the institutional rape of children so assiduously avoided when Justice Seán Ryan for the Irish Government brought down his extensive report on 20 May, 2009. And when the Australian Government is conducting a Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse across the whole Australian Continent?

    It smells of cover up at the worst and special pleading at the best.

  2. #552
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You supplied the sources; I merely quoted mis-attributed from them.
    Fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The problem of prison rape is obvious, as is one solution: stay out of jail. The fact that men in this small (~0.7%) and rarefied minority experience rape at a rate orders of magnitude higher than do men in the general population...
    This is your solution to prison rape? Victim blaming. That .7% (minimizing) of the general population translates into about 2.3 million people for perspective. It's easy to lose sight of the fact that some people, while law breakers, are in prison for such offenses as not paying their taxes, smoking/possessing marijuana, a 2nd petty theft that get's augmented to felony burglary and other non violent class D, C felonies and "shouldn't" be subjected to rape while paying their "debt" to society. Unless you're of the mind that prison rape is a part of the package. Which apparently you are.

    Prisoner Rape is Torture Under International Law http://www.justdetention.org/en/fact...is_Torture.pdf

    "...including the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or degrading Treatment or punishment (CaT) and the International covenant on Civil and political Rights (ICCPR), both of which have been ratified by the United States."

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    ...says nothing about rape as an issue for women.
    You realize that women are raped in prison too right? However if you are equally callous with this population at least you are consistent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Prison data skew the results used in understanding and addressing rape in society at large, and different measures will be needed to address rape effectively in the two environments: one populated primarily by peaceable, law-abiding citizens; the other primarily by criminals.
    Wait I thought you covered this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The problem of prison rape is obvious, as is one solution: stay out of jail.
    I bring/brought up prison rape to highlight just one aspect of why the feminist narrative of "rape culture" (RC) is defective. Proponents of it (RC) will discount, minimize and engage in the same victim blaming they claim is a part of the problem when confronted with the reality of other forms of rape and continues to do nothing about. "Rape culture" as a term has been around since the mid 70's, what has "it" done about prison rape? Nothing. Could it be, I dunno, because the victims are mostly male? Naw, they're criminals, it's their own fault, nvm.

    Rape is rape.

    Jamie Fellner of Human Rights Watch gets it: http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/09/04/stop-prison-rape-now
    Last edited by SpankyMcFly; 06-16-2014 at 08:14 PM.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
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  3. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You supplied the sources; I merely quoted from them. The problem of prison rape is obvious, as is one solution: stay out of jail.
    your solution demands that we'll use the very hand you are advocating to dismember: the ideology your representing here largely addresses the low incarceration rates for rapists as a major problem with society itself - the fact it's a problem isn't up to discussion, but as long as "innocent until proven guilty" remains true for rapists, it isn't a social problem, it's a very sad but existing technical problem (a violent behavior that can look very much like it's legal counterpart). the underlining suggestion of declaring it a social problem to be fixed as a society undermines that - essentially the demand to increase incarceration rates bears with it a demand to lower the burden of proof.

    mixed that with the fact an innocent person in jail is an innocent person very likely to get raped, and the result is that you aren't actually advocating for a system change that will do a better job fighting rape, you are just advocating a system change that will change the average victim's gender (at the cost of gender equality in front of the law).
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  4. #554
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Fixed.



    This is your solution to prison rape? Victim blaming. That .7% (minimizing) of the general population translates into about 2.3 million people for perspective. It's easy to lose sight of the fact that some people, while law breakers, are in prison for such offenses as not paying their taxes, smoking/possessing marijuana, a 2nd petty theft that get's augmented to felony burglary and other non violent class D, C felonies and "shouldn't" be subjected to rape while paying their "debt" to society. Unless you're of the mind that prison rape is a part of the package. Which apparently you are.

    Prisoner Rape is Torture Under International Law http://www.justdetention.org/en/fact...is_Torture.pdf

    "...including the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or degrading Treatment or punishment (CaT) and the International covenant on Civil and political Rights (ICCPR), both of which have been ratified by the United States."



    You realize that women are raped in prison too right? However if you are equally callous with this population at least you are consistent?



    Wait I thought you covered this:



    I bring/brought up prison rape to highlight just one aspect of why the feminist narrative of "rape culture" (RC) is defective. Proponents of it (RC) will discount, minimize and engage in the same victim blaming they claim is a part of the problem when confronted with the reality of other forms of rape and continues to do nothing about. "Rape culture" as a term has been around since the mid 70's, what has "it" done about prison rape? Nothing. Could it be, I dunno, because the victims are male? Naw, they're criminals, it's their own fault, nvm.

    Rape is rape.

    Jamie Fellner of Human Rights Watch gets it: http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/09/04/stop-prison-rape-now
    i completely agree. i didn't read the whole exchange prior to this one but i don't see prison rape as any less awful at all. something needs to change there for sure. i feel we owe it to inmates to keep them safe. No one should be worried about joining a gang or becoming someone's bitch for protection or being raped or shived in their sleep.

    it's sickening.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  5. #555
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    ^I also agree. I said earlier that IMO, the casual throwing-around of prison rape jokes and even earnestly-stated hopes that this or that criminal will be raped in prison are part of rape culture.

  6. #556
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    ^I also agree. I said earlier that IMO, the casual throwing-around of prison rape jokes and even earnestly-stated hopes that this or that criminal will be raped in prison are part of rape culture.
    There is a history behind the term that most people don't or can't (because it happened so long ago, and is difficult to find) take into consideration. Rape Culture was also a brief documentary film (1975) that "...featured Mary Daly, radical feminist philosopher, academic, and theologian, and Author and Artist Emily Culpepper." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_Culture_%28film%29 I'd highly recommend it, if you can find it.

    While they discussed and illuminated the very real "SYSTEMIC BARRIERS" to rape it appeared to me to be a giant exercise in confirmation bias using https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope, https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal and several other fallacies that dovetailed with Patriarchy Theory. They also interviewed several serial rapists (a minority subset of rapists who have an outsized impact on total rapes) who discussed why they raped. As you are probably already aware, serial rapists very often rape as an act of domination/power/humiliation. One very articulate serial rapist in particular dominates the interview and he raped for domination/power/humiliation. Why, that fits right into patriarchy theory, excellent. They did not look at all classes of rapists/reasons why people rape (at the time rapists still hadn't been researched to the degree that we take for granted) and took it, at face value what these serial rapists were saying to explain all motives for rape. It is this universality & simplicity that is appealing and easy to grasp and why it is also it's achilles heel and defective.

    There are very real "systemic barriers" that women & men face when dealing with rape but this is conflated with "culture". Why? Having to give context and explain that it doesn't always apply often loses the listener and diminishes the fear leveraging.

    Richard Brodie wrote a book on memetics ~ Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme http://www.amazon.com/dp/1401924689 That I'd highly recommend. He doesn't talk about rape directly but he does discuss how we share and communicate information with each other and how thoughts compete with each other and gain dominance. Rape Culture is an example of a meme, not a bad thing per se, but understanding memetics certainly put's into context how rape culture is trying to become the dominant words to describe "systemic barriers".
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #557
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    Go to africa if you think the united states promotes rape, see what you find there.
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  8. #558
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    Default The Clergy and Child Rape

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    serial rapists very often rape as an act of domination/power/humiliation.
    The peak of clerical power is to rape a child and get away with it because you are protected by your powerful international institution.

  9. #559
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Why is the institutional rape of children so assiduously avoided when Justice Seán Ryan for the Irish Government brought down his extensive report on 20 May, 2009. And when the Australian Government is conducting a Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse across the whole Australian Continent?

    It smells of cover up at the worst and special pleading at the best.
    Agreed. Part of the problem is organizations attempting (trying to appear) to handle the problem internally, whether it be churches, universities, or other. Rape is a crime. However inadequate the response of the justice system, in most places the "response" of these institutions is even worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    your solution demands that we'll use the very hand you are advocating to dismember: the ideology your representing here largely addresses the low incarceration rates for rapists as a major problem with society itself - the fact it's a problem isn't up to discussion, but as long as "innocent until proven guilty" remains true for rapists, it isn't a social problem, it's a very sad but existing technical problem (a violent behavior that can look very much like it's legal counterpart). the underlining suggestion of declaring it a social problem to be fixed as a society undermines that - essentially the demand to increase incarceration rates bears with it a demand to lower the burden of proof.

    mixed that with the fact an innocent person in jail is an innocent person very likely to get raped, and the result is that you aren't actually advocating for a system change that will do a better job fighting rape, you are just advocating a system change that will change the average victim's gender (at the cost of gender equality in front of the law).
    I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. I drew a distinction between prison, where most (not all) people are criminals, with a record of not following the law or respecting the rights of others; and the general population, where most people are not criminals. People in prison are at far greater risk of rape as well as other forms of violence, especially males. In prison, we do not have the potentially civilizing influence of that large lawful majority to help create an environment in which rape is not tolerated, and is punished swiftly when it does occur.

    If we are speaking in terms of culture, prison rape is part of a whole culture of prison violence and domination/hierarchy/gangs, etc. that has been very hard to overcome. It is a serious problem that needs to be addressed, but will probably require a different approach from what will prove effective in society at large. Reducing crime in general is a start, as is expanding the use sentencing other than jail time for nonviolent crime. Both of these will bring down the prison population overall. I doubt that reform of the justice/penal system will do much to reduce rape on the outside, though, where women are most affected.

    So, to summarize another way: in the general population, rape is largely a women's issue. Being incarcerated and subjected to the spectrum of violence prevalent in prisons is more a men's issue. We do not need to deny the one problem to discuss or work on solving the other. And yes - they are related, as manifestations of violence.
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  10. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. I drew a distinction between prison, where most (not all) people are criminals, with a record of not following the law or respecting the rights of others;
    my point is a 3 fold, so i'll try to organize it better accordingly:


    1st layer:

    assumption: as members of the CRC (counter-rape-culture) we view the low conviction rates for suspected rape cases as a major social & cultural problem to be fixed.

    however, as long as prison rape is a common phenomena, then increasing conviction rates on ANYTHING (regardless if innocent or not) increases the number of people who are introduced into a system in which they are likely to get raped - when calling to increase conviction rates on anything, you are, for all practical matters, advocating a social change in which more people[/B] be placed in a position where they [B]are likely to get raped. as long as conviction and the likely state of getting raped have direct a cause and affect relationship, advocating for more of the cause also advocating for more of the affect.

    2nd layer:

    now let's put the question of whether it's justifiable aside - and instead just leave the point that there's a choice involved - after all, you have the power to just stay out of prison by choosing to not commit any crime to began with...
    or alternatively:


    the problem with that is that this assumption:
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    prison, where most (not all) people are criminals, with a record of not following the law or respecting the rights of others;
    is only as trustworthy as the extent that we are willing to hold a high bar for what constitutes proof beyond reasonable doubt.

    however, if we make it our goal is to increase the conviction rates on ANYTHING, and the blame (and thus pressure to change) for the lack of convictions is placed not just on the practical process of investigation & evidence gathering but rather on society and culture and thus the process through which we determine the bar for what constitutes as proof to began with, then we are unavoidably also pressuring to lower the bar of evidence for said crime. as a result, we are calling for more innocent people to be in prison. and in conjunction with point 1, you are calling for more innocent people to get raped.

    3rd layer:

    the moment we demand an increase conviction rate for innocent people, this:

    The problem of prison rape is obvious, as is one solution: stay out of jail.
    becomes self defeating; we are effectively calling for removing the question of whether you've chosen to commit a crime, and instead replacing it with the question of whether someone has chose to prosecute you for a crime - we are shifting the influence over the result from the 1st variable to the 2nd, from your agency to that of others. essentially, you are trying to justify the demand to take away the power to avoid a result by claiming that people have the power to avoid the result.

    (i hope this clarified my point)

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