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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qloshae View Post
    Again, you ignore the definitions.
    Masculinity is not a product of being male, a man cleans the house, cooks the food, wears a pink dress and plays with dolls, is he masculine?
    Men evolved to perform a certain function in society, as did women. I think that men and women would naturally assume gender roles if they weren't brainwashed. What concerns me is that men have traditionally had separate roles to women which has given us a sense of identity and purpose. Also explain to me how you can be valued as much if you are doing something which the other party can do as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qloshae View Post
    If you truly believe that then make some examples instead of just making an empty statement.
    Sure. This should be obvious (though i am learning nothing can be taken for granted with you people) but men and women are unequal physically; the average man is going to be able to perform a number of physical tasks to an ability above that of the average woman. Again, this is due to evolution, males and females being crafted for differing roles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qloshae View Post
    Well, I am a man, what's the problem?
    Outside that, how you justify treating people is your problem, not my problem and isn't really the problem of society either.

    That said, I treat men and women the same with the difference that I perceive women differently based their compatibility with me and I can be sexually aroused by them. I don't however make up irrational excuses so I could feel justified treating them like sex objects to discharge my temporary hornyness. I still treat them with the same respect I treat anyone else with.

    You should try it, girls totally LOVE guys who respect them, even lesbians! (tho they will still not be sexually attracted to you - the lesbians that is)
    Believe it or not, I treat women with respect as well. In fact, it has been me treating them with respect, doing favours for them and not focusing on my own needs enough which has led to me being taken advantage of in the past. We were just discussing in another thread how being really nice and passive with women doesn't turn them on. Guys who act that way get friendzoned and laughed at. I used to be completely like that, and still are partly. I am just learning from my mistakes.

    You get more respect when you learn how to say "no" sometimes, and obviously women will never tell you this. Saying "no", setting boundaries for them, being brave enough to stand firm when they storm out in a tantrum...that is what gets you respect. They always come back for more. My ex called me a racist, Nazi, sexist, etc, and fought with me all the time, but once I learned to stand up to her and not fear her leaving me, she respected me more and it was me who dumped her when I got sick of the fighting.

  2. #512
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Do you think rape affects men? What % of all rapes do you think men consist? Are you aware of PREA and their surveys?
    Rape affects men, directly and indirectly. What's your point here?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    And after the start?

    ETA: Actually...nevermind. In retrospect, I suspect there is no way to universally find a way to bypass the rape culture because every time a nice guy finds a way to be approachable in some way, some asshole will use that same behavior to disarm and manipulate a woman into thinking he's trustworthy so he can take advantage of her.
    The start is important. Review these discussions and see how often people are talking about first meetings, approaching someone or being approached, and interactions with people one doesn't know very well. We have very little understanding yet of the other person, their values, and how they react and engage. Treating men and women, regardless of which you are, with the courtesy of not making assumptions, and the openness to see them for who they really are is a good place to start until you develop a basis for more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    If you sincerely believe that there are no innate gender differences between male and female, then there is simply no point having an argument. It is like arguing against someone who believes the world is only 6,000 years old.

    I believe some differentiation in gender roles is important to make both parties value a relationship and have a sense of purpose.
    I have asked you to justify your claims with evidence and reasoning, and you reply with statements of personal belief. Yours is the position equivalent to that claim of Earth being 6000 years old, or better yet - that the earth is flat. At one time that was so obvious and universally accepted as to require no proof in most people's estimation.

    You can do better than that, and will need to if you expect your opinions to be taken seriously as more than a personal preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    IAlso, I know for a fact that women don't respect men who take on traditionally feminine functions. I know that from experience. I don't doubt that you will argue, but just looking at how men who submit to female demands are treated is proof to me that you gain a lot more respect setting guidelines for women and asserting authority.
    Just where do you get these "facts"? Taking on "traditionally feminine functions" cannot be equated with "submitting to female demands". In any case, men who object to "female demands" have no business making their own male demands. That is simple hypocrisy. Better for men and women to take on functions freely, please each other out of choice, and do what makes sense for their individual situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Gender is a social construct now? Great! I get to hit feminists like you without feeling bad. I don't have to do women any special favours anymore just for having a pussy between their legs.

    Nothing you can say here will convince me that women respect men who supplicate to them. It doesn't turn anybody on.
    It seems to turn men on; or at least many men are quick to encourage and then take advantage of a supplicating woman. Personally I find it unattractive in anyone. You are right about one thing, though: don't do women, or men, any special favors. Treat us all with common courtesy and respect, and most of the time, you will be treated the same in return.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Masculinity is dependent on differentiation between how men and women operate. What is there for a man to identify with, just as a man, if there are no differences in how men and women function, in their roles? Me having a penis and you not isn't enough for me to create a sense of identity and purpose distinct from you. This is something that women just don't seem to understand; by tearing away at every traditional male domain, we lose our identity, what makes us men....whereas there will always be things that women can do, like having children and nursing them, which men can't do.
    Your worldview must be limited indeed if so much of your identity is tied up in simply being a man. The men I know and respect find their identity in their talents and character; their work, hobbies, and interests; their relationships and dreams. Yes, they are men and that matters, but not moreso than all those other qualities that differentiate each of them even among other men. Same for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    What I am really trying to get at here is that women are now looking to a type of man who is just going to give them a quick ride then move on. Because that is all they want, often. This isn't about love at all, nor is it about character - that's laughable. The culture doesn't suit me and I am brave enough to admit that. But it isn't right, either. As these women will find out when they are older.
    I agree with you about the downside of looking for a "quick ride". That has been the prerogative of men for millennia, however, excluding the small subset of women written off as whores. If any of this is driven by biology, that disparity may be. The man has his quick fling in the hay and moves on, while the woman bears the long-term consequences, quite literally. The advent of birth control levels this playing field significantly, meaning that both men and women now can put instant gratification over long-term relationship and personal responsibility. This is not to my tastes, but I don't see it as my job to dictate the sexual habits of others, just to live and choose a mate as I see fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Inequality exists because men and women are not the same.

    I don't think you really consider the implications of wanting to eliminate gender. I was hypothetically saying that if you don't consider femininity to be real, there is no reason why i shouldn't treat you like I would a man.
    You may finally be starting to get it. Just don't confuse equality with identity. All men are not the same either, nor are all women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Men evolved to perform a certain function in society, as did women. I think that men and women would naturally assume gender roles if they weren't brainwashed. What concerns me is that men have traditionally had separate roles to women which has given us a sense of identity and purpose. Also explain to me how you can be valued as much if you are doing something which the other party can do as well?
    This evolutionary process you reference developed in a society that no longer exists. Physical differences between men and women are sufficient to continue to support these essential functions, without constraining the many other facets of human life. Complementarity is fine, as long as it is real. Many women are better at "traditionally male" functions than men are, and vice versa. There is value in redundancy as well, so when one partner is absent or incapacitated, the other can take over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Believe it or not, I treat women with respect as well. In fact, it has been me treating them with respect, doing favours for them and not focusing on my own needs enough which has led to me being taken advantage of in the past. We were just discussing in another thread how being really nice and passive with women doesn't turn them on. Guys who act that way get friendzoned and laughed at. I used to be completely like that, and still are partly. I am just learning from my mistakes.

    You get more respect when you learn how to say "no" sometimes, and obviously women will never tell you this. Saying "no", setting boundaries for them, being brave enough to stand firm when they storm out in a tantrum...that is what gets you respect. They always come back for more. My ex called me a racist, Nazi, sexist, etc, and fought with me all the time, but once I learned to stand up to her and not fear her leaving me, she respected me more and it was me who dumped her when I got sick of the fighting.
    You seem to have an all-or-nothing approach to women. Either you go overboard and let them take advantage of you, or you overcompensate and try to be Tarzan to their Jane. The happy medium is found in realizing that the person you need to set boundaries for is yourself, not them. You decide what you are willing to do, what your dealbreakers are, and when that line is crossed you say no for yourself. You leave, and don't look back. This doesn't compel the woman at all, but if she keeps losing guys this way, she will take notice. In any case, she's no longer your problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    II am nostalgic simply because guys like me are much less attractive to women than we used to be, and I am powerless to change the system at the moment. I am angry at my parents' and grandparents' generations for allowing these changes to happen, instead of thinking about the future and resisting.
    You are far too young to be nostalgic, and for a world you never knew at that. I think we are getting somewhere with the highlighted, though. If you can work out the underlying reasons for this anger, you might be on the right track.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #513
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Why do people keep repeating this nonsense about men and women being the same, just with different sex organs? I think they've allowed the Politics of Equality to cloud their judgment. Science backs up the claim that there are innate differences between men and women that go beyond penises and vaginas.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4374010.html

    That's not to mention all the behavioral hormonal differences between males and females. People don't want to admit that the differences between the sexes are real because they pray at the Altar of Equality.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Why do people keep repeating this nonsense about men and women being the same, just with different sex organs? I think they've allowed the Politics of Equality to cloud their judgment. Science backs up the claim that there are innate differences between men and women that go beyond penises and vaginas.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4374010.html

    That's not to mention all the behavioral hormonal differences between males and females. People don't want to admit that the differences between the sexes are real because they pray at the Altar of Equality.
    I think a lot of this is also due to a wording/language issue. I think most people are aware of these difference. The distinction people are trying to make is that there are enough exceptions to the rule that men or women shouldn't automatically be precluded or discriminated against from certain things due to some inconsistencies. I think Corilolsis' post lays this out well.
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  5. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I think a lot of this is also due to a wording/language issue. I think most people are aware of these difference. The distinction people are trying to make is that there are enough exceptions to the rule that men or women shouldn't automatically be precluded or discriminated against from certain things due to some inconsistencies. I think Corilolsis' post lays this out well.
    This! There may be some neurological differences, there are definitely some hormonal differences, but I don't want anyone to assume that because I have estrogen that I'm a fan of romantic comedies or I want my husband to treat me like a child by "setting boundaries" for me. He's not my dad. I'm a grown ass woman.

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Why do people keep repeating this nonsense about men and women being the same, just with different sex organs? I think they've allowed the Politics of Equality to cloud their judgment. Science backs up the claim that there are innate differences between men and women that go beyond penises and vaginas.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4374010.html

    That's not to mention all the behavioral hormonal differences between males and females. People don't want to admit that the differences between the sexes are real because they pray at the Altar of Equality.
    If you're referring to what @Qloshae wrote one or two pages back, it was said that it's one biological difference among others. That one is just one of the most obvious and convenient.
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  7. #517
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I think a lot of this is also due to a wording/language issue. I think most people are aware of these difference. The distinction people are trying to make is that there are enough exceptions to the rule that men or women shouldn't automatically be precluded or discriminated against from certain things due to some inconsistencies. I think Corilolsis' post lays this out well.
    There are plenty of people who aren't aware. They've spent too much time in Gender Studies courses and their brains fell out.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #518
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There are plenty of people who aren't aware. They've spent too much time in Gender Studies courses and their brain fell out.
    I think this is excessively harsh, but I do get where you're coming from; as I see it, forced equality is just the other side of the coin of lack of equality. Just let people do their thing, and recognize limitations as they come up.
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  9. #519
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Why do people keep repeating this nonsense about men and women being the same, just with different sex organs? I think they've allowed the Politics of Equality to cloud their judgment. Science backs up the claim that there are innate differences between men and women that go beyond penises and vaginas.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4374010.html

    That's not to mention all the behavioral hormonal differences between males and females. People don't want to admit that the differences between the sexes are real because they pray at the Altar of Equality.
    Now this is how it is done: by presenting some evidence to support one's claim. Then it can be discussed rationally, rather than preached as unsubstantiated belief.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I think this is excessively harsh, but I do get where you're coming from; as I see it, forced equality is just the other side of the coin of lack of equality. Just let people do their thing, and recognize limitations as they come up.
    Yes - we will never have equality of ability or characteristics among people. We are all too different, with sex being just one of many differences. What we can and should have is equality of opportunity, so the limitations and advantages each of us go through life with come from the reality of who we are, not some externally imposed requirement.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes - we will never have equality of ability or characteristics among people. We are all too different, with sex being just one of many differences. What we can and should have is equality of opportunity, so the limitations and advantages each of us go through life with come from the reality of who we are, not some externally imposed requirement.
    Well said. There are definitely trends in characteristics and abilities. But it seems like there's enough variation among individuals to warrant not assuming gender-based trends apply to anyone in particular. On average, men have greater upper body strength. But I'd put Sara Robles up against any man here in a weightlifting competition.

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