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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  1. #481
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    What men can do is help other men see that rape jokes aren't funny,...
    This is interesting subtext to "rape culture" as it attempts to imply, imo, what one finds funny/not funny into later criminal behavior via normalization/desensitization etc., which is quite a jump https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

    "Humor has no boundaries—it permeates every social context. Undoubtedly humor and laughing are essential parts of what it is to be human. The pursuit of unraveling what is humor and why it is a central component of our social lives has engaged a wide variety of scholars."

    Humorous Communication: Finding a Place for Humor in Communication Research http://teacher.shu.edu.tw/~tyu/CTA.pdf

    In order for a rape joke to be "funny" you first have to start with the premise that rape is "wrong". It is the f***ing with this premise that makes it humor. When someone tells a rape joke (or enjoys one) they are actually communicating that they understand this right/wrong nature, contrary to "rape culture". Most cultures, certainly the U.S. one, teaches us that rape is wrong. Paradoxically, rape jokes have the effect of strengthening and increasing awareness of this right/wrong nature. However with social taboos (and the prudes/thought police) being what they are, certain subjects are going to be controversial and are just not worth the fallout to some people. If we factored for the possibility of someone's feelings being hurt when "we" engaged in humor/joking, we'd quickly find that there is nothing that can be discussed without a portion of the population being hurt/offended.

    Check out: Humor as an Interpretation of Incongruity

    “A situation is invariably comic when it belongs simultaneously to two altogether independent series of events and is capable of being interpreted in two entirely different meanings at the same time” In the case of rape, right/wrong.

    In the spirit of this post I will tell a rape joke to communicate to others that I understand rape is WRONG. Don't click the spoiler if you think you might be offended.

    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I've wondered that myself but honestly - it's something I'd leave up to shrinks to figure out

    At the same time, a rape fantasy has something that a real live rape doesn't - control. You can stop it at any time, you can decide on what they do to you and what they look like. And many a rape victim actually goes into BDSM to regain some semblance of control through recreating what they went through.
    That's interesting. Perhaps the administrators of these studies should have taken a survey of how many women who confessed to having rape fantasies were prior victims of rape themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    In essence, the one thing that rape fantasies don't share with rape is the actual part where permission isn't granted, and your control to stop anything you don't want happening is taken away. And it is exactly that part which creates the difference in experience - from sexually aroused to completely terrified and traumatised.
    This subject came up before on another board. Interestingly, the number of women in the forum who admitted to having rape fantasies was consistent with the statistics in the study. What I found most shocking was that these women fantasized about the perpetrator forcefully violating their will. In some cases, he was grotesquely disfigured or physically unattractive. I certainly can't fathom this sort of fantasy, partly because I've never fantasized about raping someone or being raped, or doing anything that I wouldn't want to experience in some capacity. Sure, on rare occasions, I have fantasized about killing someone, out of anger. Although the fantasies never succeeded in placating my anger which is why I no longer entertain such violent scenarios, opting instead to meditate until the negative energy dissipates.

    I see what you mean about women being in control of the fantasy, but the fact that they are fantasizing about their control being taken away from them is an unsettling notion, especially in a society that many women have dubbed a "rape culture," in which they fear their safety is constantly threatened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Which...makes you wonder indeed if this is a fantasy that is common in order to come to terms with the lack of control some women feel when dealing with men and the insecurity of what will happen, perhaps. A way of preparing the body for something you fear might happen. It certainly has elements of how you would treat a phobia, from what I can tell. But again - that is one for the shrinks.
    That's what I don't get, because these fantasies seem to facilitate sexual pleasure. From my understanding, these aren't casual daydreams women have of being whisked away by Prince Charming and seduced into capitulation, but rather sexually stimulating fantasies in which Sir Rapesalot physically forces himself upon unwilling victims against their consent.

    The nature of women's rape fantasies: an analysis of prevalence, frequency, and contents.

    This study evaluated the rape fantasies of female undergraduates (N = 355) using a fantasy checklist that reflected the legal definition of rape and a sexual fantasy log that included systematic prompts and self-ratings. Results indicated that 62% of women have had a rape fantasy, which is somewhat higher than previous estimates. For women who have had rape fantasies, the median frequency of these fantasies was about 4 times per year, with 14% of participants reporting that they had rape fantasies at least once a week. In contrast to previous research, which suggested that rape fantasies were either entirely aversive or entirely erotic, rape fantasies were found to exist on an erotic-aversive continuum, with 9% completely aversive, 45% completely erotic, and 46% both erotic and aversive.

  3. #483
    Problem? Grand Admiral Crunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    i am not saying they are blaming men in particular (a few of the linked articles do, but i'll let it slide since most of the local spokesman don't seem to convey the same sentiment). i am saying they are blaming everything in society that stands against them in anyway on being the worst thing they feel like they stand against - a.k.a. "you are either with us or against us, and since we're against rapists, taking a stance against us on anything makes you just like a rapist".

    edit:
    here's a good analogy - imagine we'd frame all crime as "mass shooting culture" on the the basis that the speeding drivers, small time drug addicts and mass shooters "share the same mentality" of willingness to disobey the law.

    the result is a tripled edged sword:
    - the pot smoker gets vilified through association with mass shooting culture
    - the one contemplating mass shooting gets told his urges are just societies fault and everyone does it
    - and the general public is raised to be terrified of mass shooters everywhere
    all on the basis of faulty reasoning: in reality their motives aren't oriented around the legal system to began with.
    they are all disagreeable by the same stance (legalism) for the same reason (disobeying it), but they themselves do not inherently share the same mentality.
    So we're being divided into two groups, and the side denying rape culture exists will receive some blame for actual rapes. Is that right? That doesn't seem very productive.

  4. #484
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theDarkSide View Post
    So we're being divided into two groups, and the side denying rape culture exists will receive some blame for actual rapes. Is that right? That doesn't seem very productive.
    RAINN ~ Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "is an American anti-sexual assault organization, the largest in the United States. RAINN operates the National Sexual Assault Hotline and carries out programs to prevent sexual assault, help victims, and to ensure that rapists are brought to justice. https://www.rainn.org/

    They are on the side that "rape culture" doesn't exist and that it is actually a part of the problem. http://www.typologycentral.com/test/...=1#post2315727

    "This trend (referring to "rape culture") has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions."

    Their letter has all kinds of good recommendations towards a more productive approach to rape. Here have a look see. https://rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-...mendations.pdf
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #485
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    This is interesting subtext to "rape culture" as it attempts to imply, imo, what one finds funny/not funny into later criminal behavior via normalization/desensitization etc., which is quite a jump https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

    "Humor has no boundaries—it permeates every social context. Undoubtedly humor and laughing are essential parts of what it is to be human. The pursuit of unraveling what is humor and why it is a central component of our social lives has engaged a wide variety of scholars."

    Humorous Communication: Finding a Place for Humor in Communication Research http://teacher.shu.edu.tw/~tyu/CTA.pdf

    In order for a rape joke to be "funny" you first have to start with the premise that rape is "wrong". It is the f***ing with this premise that makes it humor. When someone tells a rape joke (or enjoys one) they are actually communicating that they understand this right/wrong nature, contrary to "rape culture". Most cultures, certainly the U.S. one, teaches us that rape is wrong. Paradoxically, rape jokes have the effect of strengthening and increasing awareness of this right/wrong nature. However with social taboos (and the prudes/thought police) being what they are, certain subjects are going to be controversial and are just not worth the fallout to some people. If we factored for the possibility of someone's feelings being hurt when "we" engaged in humor/joking, we'd quickly find that there is nothing that can be discussed without a portion of the population being hurt/offended.

    Check out: Humor as an Interpretation of Incongruity

    “A situation is invariably comic when it belongs simultaneously to two altogether independent series of events and is capable of being interpreted in two entirely different meanings at the same time” In the case of rape, right/wrong.

    In the spirit of this post I will tell a rape joke to communicate to others that I understand rape is WRONG. Don't click the spoiler if you think you might be offended.

    And yet somehow, women joking about their periods or even just discussing it with each other makes most men so uncomfortable they actually tell you to shut up.

    The only way Ive known guys be comfortable discussing PMS is when they get to denigratingly joke about it and use it to (playfully) blame women for something.

    ...what does it say about our society that people are comfortable with joking about something so vile as rape, yet have oodles of problems with others joking about a natural part of the human system? Except for when it again is denigrating to women.

    And seriously, I'm talking friends of mine here, good guys who are of course against rape, but somehow have no problem joking about it yet squeamishly look at each other when you joke about PMS - and often relieve the tension by making a denigrating joke about PMS or by changing the subject. And Ive been hissed to silence and glared at by other men who didn't know me that well for daring to bring up the vile curse that women have to suffer in silence for it is such a taboo, yet they can openly joke about raping women and tell me to lighten up and stop taking things so seriously.

    ....how does that figure into your theory?
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  6. #486
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I find it a little important because the OP isn't 'do women's issues exist?' but does rape culture exist? Defining it is important then--because I say, "Yeah, it exists because of the content, but I dislike the name.." and someone else can say "No, it doesn't exist, but its because I believe that content is filed under something else." Drawing these lines is important to the discussion.
    "Women's issues" covers much more ground than rape and sexual harrassment, and the social forces that allow it to continue. Things like breast cancer and the female side of reproductive issues, for instance. Of course defining one's terms is important. Once the definition is provided, however, the label is almost incidental. We all have the definition, and should focus our discussion on that substance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I don't agree with that, I find other cultures interesting and like women because they are different to men. However, I have no desire to see ingrates from here, there and everywhere pollute the gene pool of my people, and I have already made it clear what I think of entitled women who refuse to do any housework and play mind games with dating and sex.
    In what way do you find women to be different from men - other than the individual differences that abound from one individual to another? And what do you think of entitled men who refuse to do any housework, and play mindgames with dating and sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    FTR I'd like to point out the obvious:

    1) a man can care about women's issues (I'm married myself and have two daughters)
    2) the crime of rape happens to men as well (I also have two brothers in prison)
    3) rape is not a women's issue, it is a societal/criminal one that affects us all, directly or otherwise
    These are obvious, but do not support the point you seem to be trying to make. Breast cancer, for instance, is widely addressed as a women's issue, with outreach and services focused on women, even though plenty of men care about it, and men can even get it themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I do this all the time too and can relate. Whle I don't consider myself an Ne dom, my interpretations of intent/motive/meaning has been VERY wrong in the past. Eventually "we" buy a clue $$$, and realize sometimes all we need to do is just ask the person to explain themselves vs. us engaging in all these fanciful theorizing. I learned this at work actually where the consequences can be quite dire for "assuming" things.
    This works only if the other person is willing to provide the requested explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Which is basically the root of my disagreement with the left’s writers on a lot of these issues. They look at the state of sex and gender, masculinity and femininity, and see an uncomplicatedly progressive social revolution that just hasn’t fully succeeded yet — that hasn’t brought men, especially, into the sunlit uplands of egalitarian enlightenment — because far too many “traditional” concepts and constraints still perdure. see a social revolution that has brought good and bad, intermixed, and whose supporters could profit from the realization that some of the human goods they seek are actually more clearly visible behind us, somewhere back in a cultural past they still insist they’re fighting to overthrow,whose actual details the darkness of forgetting has almost swallowed up.
    I agree with this, though perhaps not in the way the author intended. Those qualities like self-mastery, self-containment, and self-possession; courtesy, modesty, personal responsibility and restraint; do indeed seem far too rare nowadays. The only part of the past here that we need to overthrow is the gender bias. These qualities are equally good for men and women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't know where this idea that I'd be giving dudes the stinkeye for saying hello came from. I think in my very first post on this topic I said pretty much the opposite of that.
    I probably give most people the stinkeye for saying hello, at least strangers in public, that is. I share the perspective of Lateralus here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I used to be more open with strangers, but I've distanced myself from that over the years (my poor hearing probably has something to do with that). Fortunately for me, I'm married so I don't have a need to expose myself to the judgments of strangers most of the time.

    Why do people feel the need to comment on the food I'm buying at grocery stores? A few days ago my wife and I were grocery shopping and the woman checking us out asked if I was cooking something that night. I ignored the question because it's none of her business. Apparently that was rude because the woman made a snide comment about my lack of response several seconds later. She clearly felt entitled to a response from me.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I believe it does, yes.

    I also think it would be extremely helpful if a set of rules or guidelines on acceptable conduct toward women could be universally agreed upon.
    How about just treating them the same as you treat men, for a start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I'd personally like to change those kind of messages - for both men and women. Ask any of your friends - one day, without pressure. Just about every woman I know has a story or two to tell.
    I'd like to change the messages as well, especially since I really don't have this kind of story to tell. Once I realized how many women are affected by this, just as you are, I started wondering how I escaped. I think my natural reaction to this sort of thing would indeed be outrage, but it usually comes out on behalf of someone else. I've spent my life going about my business, doing what I want to do. Perhaps I have just been lucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qloshae View Post
    ITho besides, most rapes are done by someone they know and most rapes are done somewhere you let your guard down. Which means, you are more likely to be raped at home by your boyfriend who believes the tag "boyfriend" means he can have sex with you no matter if you want it or not, or by that close friend who considers himself "friend zoned", rather than a stranger in an elevator. Which really just reinforces what I said earlier about entitlement.
    This is where that old-fashioned courtesy and restraint comes in. Women and men allow themselves to be too vulnerable with people who have not established a sufficient basis for trust.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #487
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    And yet somehow, women joking about their periods or even just discussing it with each other makes most men so uncomfortable they actually tell you to shut up.

    The only way Ive known guys be comfortable discussing PMS is when they get to denigratingly joke about it and use it to (playfully) blame women for something.

    ...what does it say about our society that people are comfortable with joking about something so vile as rape, yet have oodles of problems with others joking about a natural part of the human system? Except for when it again is denigrating to women.

    And seriously, I'm talking friends of mine here, good guys who are of course against rape, but somehow have no problem joking about it yet squeamishly look at each other when you joke about PMS - and often relieve the tension by making a denigrating joke about PMS or by changing the subject. And Ive been hissed to silence and glared at by other men who didn't know me that well for daring to bring up the vile curse that women have to suffer in silence for it is such a taboo, yet they can openly joke about raping women and tell me to lighten up and stop taking things so seriously.

    ....how does that figure into your theory?
    FTR these are not my theories. I have supplied source links.

    We use humor for all kinds of things. Incongruity is just one form of humor. It sounds like they were using superiority humor when they made fun of PMS, since guys don't get PMS. Just like (some) women make fun of guns getting kicked in the nuts, same thing. Frankly, the ONLY good thing I know about PMS... is that it means you're not pregnant. It's universally disliked-despised. Sounds like they didn't empathize/validate you. Sorry
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In what way do you find women to be different from men - other than the individual differences that abound from one individual to another?
    Is this a serious question? Gender differences are kind of...obvious...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    And what do you think of entitled men who refuse to do any housework, and play mindgames with dating and sex?
    It really depends.

    Re housework, I think men should help but should not be doing most of it.

    Re "mind games", I don't like them, but game (what you call "mind games") is just a tactic men have developed to counter women changing their mating preferences. It is also worth pointing out that women play mind games, all the time. If that wasn't the case, men wouldn't have to.

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    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Is this a serious question? Gender differences are kind of...obvious...
    It is very serious. Taking such things for granted, uncritically, as "obvious" leads to some very inaccurate assumptions. If you are going to cite gender differences as a reason or explanation for something, you should be prepared to explain exactly what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Re housework, I think men should help but should not be doing most of it.
    Why is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Re "mind games", I don't like them, but game (what you call "mind games") is just a tactic men have developed to counter women changing their mating preferences. It is also worth pointing out that women play mind games, all the time. If that wasn't the case, men wouldn't have to.
    So which "side" are you going to encourage to unilateral disarmament?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #490
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    These are obvious, but do not support the point you seem to be trying to make. Breast cancer, for instance, is widely addressed as a women's issue, with outreach and services focused on women, even though plenty of men care about it, and men can even get it themselves.
    Breast Cancer is a poor analogy to rape because a rape requires at least two people. Neither men nor women cause/create breast cancer. The same is not true for rape.

    As to the "point" I was trying to make, about rape being a societal/criminal issue that affects us all, alludes to the societal ignorance/indifference to prison rape. More men are raped each year than women when you factor in prison rape (I will supply a link to a prior post I made, which includes embedded links for the raw data, at the bottom of this post). It's a human issue.



    http://www.typologycentral.com/test/...=1#post2312006
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

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