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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #471
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I've wondered that myself but honestly - it's something I'd leave up to shrinks to figure out

    At the same time, a rape fantasy has something that a real live rape doesn't - control. You can stop it at any time, you can decide on what they do to you and what they look like. And many a rape victim actually goes into BDSM to regain some semblance of control through recreating what they went through.

    In essence, the one thing that rape fantasies don't share with rape is the actual part where permission isn't granted, and your control to stop anything you don't want happening is taken away. And it is exactly that part which creates the difference in experience - from sexually aroused to completely terrified and traumatised.

    Which...makes you wonder indeed if this is a fantasy that is common in order to come to terms with the lack of control some women feel when dealing with men and the insecurity of what will happen, perhaps. A way of preparing the body for something you fear might happen. It certainly has elements of how you would treat a phobia, from what I can tell. But again - that is one for the shrinks.
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  2. #472
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Well, think about it. How do you evaluate whether or not you're in danger?

    I know that as a woman, I look for red flags - blocking my path, cornering me, grabbing my arm to keep me in place, dismissing my protest to seemingly harmless things, trying to get me alone, etc. On top of that there's the following me around stuff. These are social boundaries that strangers cross with me on a daily basis. I have but a couple of seconds to sometimes 15 minutes (if they choose to keep me trapped to question) to do risk evaluation at that point.

    There is no way for me to *know* who is going to be out to harm me. And those that don't really feel like respecting my boundaries in the first place...well, they get red-flagged. Coz they might just decide to double-back and pay me a visit - which Ive had happen, btw.

    Then there's the friend/acquaintance evaluation - the bonds there become even fuzzier. What do I think of the guy who acts like my friend but uses being in a pool with me and playing a game with a ball as an excuse to feel up my chest while he masks it to others with being after the ball? How do I act around him later, and do I want to be in a room with him alone afterwards? It's normal to want to give him the benefit of the doubt coz..well, he maybe didn't mean to grope me? Or, perhaps he is otherwise a great guy and a lot of fun? And maybe he's just affectionate? You start making excuses for them because it is supposedly harmless.

    If these behaviours would become not accepted by society, it would be easier to weed out the *actual* threats who will go out of their way to harm you - because they'd be the only ones displaying these behaviours and testing your boundaries like that. The hyper vigilance one displays around someone like that wouldn't have to be on 24/7 as the level of 'false alarms' would drastically drop.

    Does that make more sense?
    It does, actually.

    Although, I don't feel there is much I can do to stop such behaviors. And I think if I did try, I'm as likely to get criticized by the woman as much as the man. It's the kind of behavior that gets seen as inauthentic and self-serving, usually. I'm sure many people, men and women alike, feel that way about the fact that I'm even having this conversation right now.
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  3. #473
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Which...makes you wonder indeed if this is a fantasy that is common in order to come to terms with the lack of control some women feel when dealing with men and the insecurity of what will happen, perhaps. A way of preparing the body for something you fear might happen. It certainly has elements of how you would treat a phobia, from what I can tell. But again - that is one for the shrinks.
    Fetishising a difficult area would seem very common. I know that there are people who get off on being humiliated for being fat, or having small penises. And there are whole porn subcultures devoted to black/white pairings in different combinations and apparent power dynamics, such as "cuckolding", which is seemingly especially exciting when one's wife is stolen by an "alpha" black man. Humans are a very strange species.

  4. #474
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    It does, actually. Although, I don't feel there is much I can do to stop such behaviors. And I think if I did, I'm as likely to get criticized by the woman as much as the man. It's the kind of behavior that gets seen as inauthentic and self-serving, usually.
    It certainly feels that way. But how is it that certain customs get established in a society? Because there is a general consensus that this isn't acceptable/beneficial to said society. These kind of changes within society aren't easy, and they require building up to a tipping scale. The amount of debate and awareness being raised right now is good - it's a starting point.

    What men can do is help other men see that rape jokes aren't funny, that grabbing someone's arm even if you disagree with them leaving the conversation isn't cool and that generally forcing your will on someone isn't naughty bad, it's bad bad.

    The same is true for women - telling women that they need to stop physically attacking men even if they don't do any damage is needed. It's not coz we don't do any objective damage that this isn't a violation. Assuming a guy wants to sleep with you coz you're offering and acting like he's already consented, is another.

    But sure - at present, these behaviours are still too engrained and might get you hostility and resistance if you call people on it. But then we did it with racism, we did it with slavery and we did it with gay lifestyles. None of those have been easy roads, but surely, we can do this as well.
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  5. #475
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Fetishising a difficult area would seem very common. I know that there are people who get off on being humiliated for being fat, or having small penises. And there are whole porn subcultures devoted to black/white pairings in different combinations and apparent power dynamics, such as "cuckolding", which is seemingly especially exciting when one's wife is stolen by an "alpha" black man. Humans are a very strange species.
    In essence, it makes sense though - it's replacing your fear with sexual arousal as a way of coping with it. It helps you face it, and cope with it if you're ever too helpless and not in a position to avoid/deal with it properly.
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  6. #476
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    you missed the point: it isn't rape, it's rape culture. it's not a matter of hearing rape and thinking whether it's you, in fact that's taken completely out of the equation (read: the ability to "unknowingly rape someone"). instead, it's a matter of folding multiply feminist stances into one (see two post above mine for a little example), and placing any opposition or room for reasoning under the title of rape.

    essentially "you are either with us or against us, and since we're against rapists, taking a stance against us on anything makes you just like a rapist". it's a sick social engineering and debate tactic under a big fat flag made of faulty logic, and altogether counter productive for it's intended goals (though validating would be rapists might be an effective indirect recruitment mechanism ).
    So if it's rape culture. Wouldn't there be like, a "Captain Rapey" action figure? Or "Rape is Good" T-Shirts?

    Most cultures have artifacts.

    I don't hear too many sing-a-long songs like "Let's all do some raping!"
    Or magazines at the newsstand, Rape and Gardening.
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  7. #477
    Problem? Grand Admiral Crunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    you missed the point: it isn't rape, it's rape culture. it's not a matter of hearing rape and thinking whether it's you, in fact that's taken completely out of the equation (read: the ability to "unknowingly rape someone"). instead, it's a matter of folding multiply feminist stances into one (see two post above mine for a little example), and placing any opposition or room for reasoning under the title of rape.

    essentially "you are either with us or against us, and since we're against rapists, taking a stance against us on anything makes you just like a rapist". it's a sick social engineering and debate tactic under a big fat flag made of faulty logic, and altogether counter productive for it's intended goals (though validating would be rapists might be an effective indirect recruitment mechanism ).
    I interpreted this question as a general indictment of all of society. In society, women generally set the standards and men enforce them. I as an individual would fault myself for buying tickets for being entertained by trash in the media. Mothers could be blamed for allowing their sons to play violent video games. So, if rape culture exists, then everyone is responsible, both genders should be ashamed, and change their behavior. Seems like old news.

    But this rape culture business is getting more traction than it should, and I wonder why. Is the word "culture" being used to point the finger at a particular group or groups? If it were, it wouldn't be women or men because they tend to create culture together. Possibly I'm over-thinking it and this is media hype over the same old crap.

  8. #478
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theDarkSide View Post
    I interpreted this question as a general indictment of all of society. In society, women generally set the standards and men enforce them. I as an individual would fault myself for buying tickets for being entertained by trash in the media. Mothers could be blamed for allowing their sons to play violent video games. So, if rape culture exists, then everyone is responsible, both genders should be ashamed, and change their behavior. Seems like old news.

    But this rape culture business is getting more traction than it should, and I wonder why. Is the word "culture" being used to point the finger at a particular group or groups? If it were, it wouldn't be women or men because they tend to create culture together. Possibly I'm over-thinking it and this is media hype over the same old crap.
    Nope, you're getting it alright. It is that easy.

    But many people either misunderstand the concept or are so blinded by the myth of the big fat feminazis out to castrate all men that they refuse to think about it calmly.
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  9. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by theDarkSide View Post
    I interpreted this question as a general indictment of all of society. In society, women generally set the standards and men enforce them. I as an individual would fault myself for buying tickets for being entertained by trash in the media. Mothers could be blamed for allowing their sons to play violent video games. So, if rape culture exists, then everyone is responsible, both genders should be ashamed, and change their behavior. Seems like old news.

    But this rape culture business is getting more traction than it should, and I wonder why. Is the word "culture" being used to point the finger at a particular group or groups? If it were, it wouldn't be women or men because they tend to create culture together. Possibly I'm over-thinking it and this is media hype over the same old crap.
    i am not saying they are blaming men in particular (a few of the linked articles do, but i'll let it slide since most of the local spokesman don't seem to convey the same sentiment). i am saying they are blaming everything in society that stands against them in anyway on being the worst thing they feel like they stand against - a.k.a. "you are either with us or against us, and since we're against rapists, taking a stance against us on anything makes you just like a rapist".

    edit:
    here's a good analogy - imagine we'd frame all crime as "mass shooting culture" on the the basis that the speeding drivers, small time drug addicts and mass shooters "share the same mentality" of willingness to disobey the law.

    the result is a tripled edged sword:
    - the pot smoker gets vilified through association with mass shooting culture
    - the one contemplating mass shooting gets told his urges are just societies fault and everyone does it
    - and the general public is raised to be terrified of mass shooters everywhere
    all on the basis of faulty reasoning: in reality their motives aren't oriented around the legal system to began with.
    they are all disagreeable by the same stance (legalism) for the same reason (disobeying it), but they themselves do not inherently share the same mentality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post

    But many people either misunderstand the concept or are so blinded by the myth of the big fat feminazis out to castrate all men that they refuse to think about it calmly.
    for what it's worth, i don't think your a misandrists or a big evil feminist looking to castrate all men - while i personally find that your current position outright conflicts with being anti-discrimination and utilitarianism in general - and i explained why (quite calmly) - i do understand that you don't see why it would and honestly believe it to be an expression of the very same values, and you are more likely to be motivated by what it expresses within your framework then within mine - i am able to view the motivation behind your stance under the light of your own view and separate from the consequence that i see, and don't need to apply a motive to fit with what i see and you don't.
    see, just because i view your position as destructive towards equality and the general well being, i don't need to assign those very goals as the motive and thus don't need to assume they are expressions of your secret deep seeded hate towards the opposite gender or society (pun only half intended). while i do think such motives exist and some women might act on such motives to cut off men's junk, i do not blindly place the same mentality or draw metaphorical parallels and forgone common attributes on the basis of me finding them both disagreeable just to place you under the title "castration culture"...


  10. #480
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Because sex is such a taboo topic, the fuzzier lines don't get discussed as much and most people seem to believe that rapists are these creepy guys in dark alleys. I think we would benefit greatly from actually adding proper sex-ed classes which not only explain the mere act of sex, but discuss the ethics, go into how to learn and establish boundaries, withstand pressure (peer or otherwise), do away with slut-shaming, discuss how attraction works, what it is likely to cause emotionally, and how to handle those raging hormones/emotions, as well as how to negotiate consent properly and give kids a clear overview of how the subtler nuances of mating behaviour actually *work* instead of making them figure this out all on their own with a bunch of preconceived notions about what they're to do according to their gender to boot.
    Agreed! Let's talk about sex more, which I'm all for. Seriously, this planet needs to get laid *Imagines a planetary "let's have sex" day* This Friday actually, 12:00 pm local time. Reenters reality... yeah prolly not gonna happen. Bummer dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    As such, what I contributed stands - if you normalise a behaviour, expect it to be executed as such. While rape is definitely vilified - and most people's response does reveal that value was passed on as they understandably abhor even being considered at all in the same box as a rapist on *anything* - many entitled behaviours such as grabbing someone's ass aren't. They're encouraged as naughty things to get away with, in many cases - and they make the step to rationalising you're just having sex and not raping someone a *LOT* easier. For both men AND women.
    What you view as normalization I view as aberrant behavior. That over time, is more often than not, corrected by society at large. Pointing out the obvious to support this notion: If every guy (or even a simply majority) who grabbed a females ass went on to become a rapist, we'd have an overall increase in rapes. Which is not the case. The reality: incidents of rape have gone down every single year for the past 20+ years http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...tables/table-1 Overall I think this is a slippery slope argument https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope "...form of of an appeal to emotion fallacy by leveraging fear."

    I think the feminist narrative of rape ala "rape culture", which is just an extrapolation/extension of Patriarchy Theory, but I digress, and should not be confused with the crime of rape and the "systemic barriers" involved, is seriously challenged by RAINN's repudiation.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

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