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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #461
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Honestly, that seems to be in complete opposition to what we know is happening in the Middle East. Does that mean that the culture there has nothing to do with the fact that they use rape as an acceptable fear tactic on women to keep them under their control? Are those truly just all isolated individuals? And are there just that many rapists there?

    I honestly do think that accepted objectification in a society has a big part to play in this.(Hell, I even see this in the sloppy socialisation of animals as an animal behaviourist - if you teach your pet that your hand is an object to be played with, and refuse to establish proper boundaries when they're young, don't be surprised when your puppy or kitten turns out they maul your hands or ankles when it's an adult. Not to mention that animals socialised with their prey animal from a young age will regard it -and its species - as family instead of an object to catch and feast on )

    Granted, there will *always* be individuals within that society that will commit those crimes - those we can only stop by apprehending them so they're not the focus of the debate in that way. Doesn't mean they don't count though, but it seems that this information might be mostly based on these type of offenders?

    But, i'll leave this to Ti-users to fully analyse and respond to this one
    You didn't read the letter did you? I'll add the very next paragraph to the post I made.

    Bottom Line: they are discussing the U.S.
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  2. #462
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    You didn't read the letter did you? I'll add the very next paragraph to the post I made.

    Bottom Line: they are discussing the U.S.
    I didn't - you're right. And while I saw the paragraph you were talking about now, and agree completely with that assessment, I can't say I believe that all rapists consider themselves rapists - effectively believing that in fact they were engaging in 'consensual' sex.

    Because sex is such a taboo topic, the fuzzier lines don't get discussed as much and most people seem to believe that rapists are these creepy guys in dark alleys. I think we would benefit greatly from actually adding proper sex-ed classes which not only explain the mere act of sex, but discuss the ethics, go into how to learn and establish boundaries, withstand pressure (peer or otherwise), do away with slut-shaming, discuss how attraction works, what it is likely to cause emotionally, and how to handle those raging hormones/emotions, as well as how to negotiate consent properly and give kids a clear overview of how the subtler nuances of mating behaviour actually *work* instead of making them figure this out all on their own with a bunch of preconceived notions about what they're to do according to their gender to boot.

    As such, what I contributed stands - if you normalise a behaviour, expect it to be executed as such. While rape is definitely vilified - and most people's response does reveal that value was passed on as they understandably abhor even being considered at all in the same box as a rapist on *anything* - many entitled behaviours such as grabbing someone's ass aren't. They're encouraged as naughty things to get away with, in many cases - and they make the step to rationalising you're just having sex and not raping someone a *LOT* easier. For both men AND women.

    And for that matter, an argument could be made that addressing these issues of entitlement - which often serve as red flags for potential victims to gauge just what the other person is up to. As opportunistic rapists (and other offenders) tend to try and get you alone and gauge your boundaries to see just how much of a fight you'll put up, having people cease giving off 'false red flags' would go a long way to isolating them, and therefore identifying them faster - and for that matter reduce the need for constant vigilance on the victims's part in that regard.
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  3. #463
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  4. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    I am a man, when I hear rape, I don't say, "No way not me, man!!"

    I think, "Rape is bad news bears."
    you missed the point: it isn't rape, it's rape culture. it's not a matter of hearing rape and thinking whether it's you, in fact that's taken completely out of the equation (read: the ability to "unknowingly rape someone"). instead, it's a matter of folding multiply feminist stances into one (see two post above mine for a little example), and placing any opposition or room for reasoning under the title of rape.

    essentially "you are either with us or against us, and since we're against rapists, taking a stance against us on anything makes you just like a rapist". it's a sick social engineering and debate tactic under a big fat flag made of faulty logic, and altogether counter productive for it's intended goals (though validating would be rapists might be an effective indirect recruitment mechanism ).

  5. #465
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qloshae View Post
    Well don't sit up waiting, I've been waiting since last night for people to just drop it. Which is why I've been repeating "it was just a 'by the way' comment" for quite some time.
    Then again, I also got a too big of an ego atm. to let people just insult me and get away with it.
    Well, there's that at least.

    Fwiw, I know what it feels like to be called on how you formulate information - I had the same sort of experience when I first got here, but they actually aren't insulting you - they do mean to just show you how your argument could be misinterpreted and how it could spread misinformation if not scrutinised as they are doing right now. It's a T-thing.

    I'm not...wanting to step into anything here, so this is just a suggestion, but if you are here to learn about other types - which after all is the mission of this place - it might be interesting to know that this is a typically T-style of argumentation which they tend to be quite good at. While I get that atm you're probably too riled up to care, or take a second look, it might be quite useful to return to this later with a clearer head. I remember doing the same with Jennifer (amongst many others) back in the day, and learning a lot that way.
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  6. #466
    Assassin from the future Qloshae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Well, there's that at least.

    Fwiw, I know what it feels like to be called on how you formulate information - I had the same sort of experience when I first got here, but they actually aren't insulting you - they do mean to just show you how your argument could be misinterpreted and how it could spread misinformation if not scrutinised as they are doing right now. It's a T-thing.

    I'm not...wanting to step into anything here, so this is just a suggestion, but if you are here to learn about other types - which after all is the mission of this place - it might be interesting to know that this is a typically T-style of argumentation which they tend to be quite good at. While I get that atm you're probably too riled up to care, or take a second look, it might be quite useful to return to this later with a clearer head. I remember doing the same with Jennifer back in the day, and learning a lot that way.
    Well, I am rationally aware of that and respect that, I irrationally need to be offended because doing anything else would open the door to more abuse from my mother and would also trigger my suicidal tendencies. Basically I am offended because that's my only way to survive atm.
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  7. #467
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qloshae View Post
    Well, I am rationally aware of that and respect that, I irrationally need to be offended because doing anything else would open the door to more abuse from my mother and would also trigger my suicidal tendencies. Basically I am offended because that's my only way to survive atm.
    ...that aint no pic nic to deal with. And it explains a lot. I'd honestly be distrustful of women after that too.

    Look, all I can tell you is that around here, people may occasionally come off harsh - and sure, there are some that will step over that line - but overall, they might disagree with you, but they will in fact respect your right to a different opinion at the end of the day.

    From what it sounds like you've got going on...you could use a place where you can rediscover yourself, warts and all, and where people give you honest feedback without being out to get you. It could help you deal with a lot of stuff. Granted, it aint no magical cure. And I do hope you can take steps towards a) getting away from an abusive situation and b) finding the help you need to process this, coz you do deserve that.
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  8. #468
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Did someone summon me? I'm a lot less fixated on the MBTI thing these days, for the record. I found that it became a crutch for lazy thinking for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Because sex is such a taboo topic, the fuzzier lines don't get discussed as much and most people seem to believe that rapists are these creepy guys in dark alleys. I think we would benefit greatly from actually adding proper sex-ed classes which not only explain the mere act of sex, but discuss the ethics, go into how to learn and establish boundaries, withstand pressure (peer or otherwise), do away with slut-shaming, discuss how attraction works, what it is likely to cause emotionally, and how to handle those raging hormones/emotions, as well as how to negotiate consent properly and give kids a clear overview of how the subtler nuances of mating behaviour actually *work* instead of making them figure this out all on their own with a bunch of preconceived notions about what they're to do according to their gender to boot.
    Agreed. There are grey areas, and I usually steer away from them (for reasons probably unrelated to feminism, tbh) . But, lots of people don't. For people with a dismissing attachment style, it would be beneficial. (mine is even worse, so I can't knock that.)


    As such, what I contributed stands - if you normalise a behaviour, expect it to be executed as such. While rape is definitely vilified - and most people's response does reveal that value was passed on as they understandably abhor even being considered at all in the same box as a rapist on *anything* - many entitled behaviours such as grabbing someone's ass aren't. They're encouraged as naughty things to get away with, in many cases - and they make the step to rationalising you're just having sex and not raping someone a *LOT* easier. For both men AND women.
    I agree with this, although I might disagree with the extent to which they are encouraged. Whether something is encouraged or not, though, is something that can only be determined by perspective. I can't really make the claim that it is not encouraged because I don't know.


    And for that matter, an argument could be made that addressing these issues of entitlement - which often serve as red flags for potential victims to gauge just what the other person is up to. As opportunistic rapists (and other offenders) tend to try and get you alone and gauge your boundaries to see just how much of a fight you'll put up, having people cease giving off 'false red flags' would go a long way to isolating them, and therefore identifying them faster - and for that matter reduce the need for constant vigilance on the victims's part in that regard.
    This is sort of where I get tripped up. Could you clarify?

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  9. #469
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post

    This is sort of where I get tripped up. Could you clarify?
    Well, think about it. How do you evaluate whether or not you're in danger?

    I know that as a woman, I look for red flags - blocking my path, cornering me, grabbing my arm to keep me in place, dismissing my protest to seemingly harmless things, trying to get me alone, etc. On top of that there's the following me around stuff. These are social boundaries that strangers cross with me on a daily basis. I have but a couple of seconds to sometimes 15 minutes (if they choose to keep me trapped to question) to do risk evaluation at that point.

    There is no way for me to *know* who is going to be out to harm me. And those that don't really feel like respecting my boundaries in the first place...well, they get red-flagged. Coz they might just decide to double-back and pay me a visit - which Ive had happen, btw.

    Then there's the friend/acquaintance evaluation - the bonds there become even fuzzier. What do I think of the guy who acts like my friend but uses being in a pool with me and playing a game with a ball as an excuse to feel up my chest while he masks it to others with being after the ball? How do I act around him later, and do I want to be in a room with him alone afterwards? It's normal to want to give him the benefit of the doubt coz..well, he maybe didn't mean to grope me? Or, perhaps he is otherwise a great guy and a lot of fun? And maybe he's just affectionate? You start making excuses for them because it is supposedly harmless.

    If these behaviours would become not accepted by society, it would be easier to weed out the *actual* threats who will go out of their way to harm you - because they'd be the only ones displaying these behaviours and testing your boundaries like that. The hyper vigilance one displays around someone like that wouldn't have to be on 24/7 as the level of 'false alarms' would drastically drop.

    Does that make more sense?
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  10. #470
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    I don't think it has been brought up yet, but I wonder to what degree, if any, does "rape culture" factor into the prevalence of rape fantasies among women. I've yet to vote in the poll because I don't have enough information to come to a conclusion, regarding the existence of a rape culture. But if it does exist, are rape fantasies a byproduct of it, or completely irrelevent? It seems that talking about rape fantasies is somewhat taboo, but I think it warrants inclusion in a discussion about rape culture. Some studies have concluded that nearly half of women, among those studied, admitted to fantasizing about being raped at some point. Of course, this doesn't mean that fantasies equate to a desire to be raped in reality. And generally this topic leads to an argument over semantics, concerning what constitutes rape, consent, etc... But for those who believe we live in a rape culture, do you think that has any influence on rape fantasies?

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