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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #431
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Not trying to be mean, but I genuinely don't understand. Wouldn't getting on the elevator and not raping them (maybe starting friendly small talk about the weather instead?) be a good way to build trust? How can avoiding the situation build trust? Staying away from people is no way to break down barriers of trust. I think it's really sweet of Ivy's dad to be so considerate of women's feelings, I just don't think we'll get very far with that approach, in a big picture sense.

    I don't blame women for not getting on the elevator, I only mean, I know I'm not going to rape them, so can't I get on if they're already on it?
    i think you build trust when not in a compromised position. i get in elevators all the time with men when out in a public place with plenty of people around. i make small talk etc and treat them the same as i would anyone.

    but a few weeks ago when i was at the hospital and saw three dudes who were apparently drunk and pointing to each other to check some girl out and one dude holding his dick and they just looked like trouble...i didn't get on the elevator with them. it was like 4am...not many people around.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  2. #432
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    For the record I have never asked nor indicated that I think men should avoid getting on elevators with women. I just think my dad is a sweet guy so I guess I'm pre-inclined to think things he does are sweet. I agree with you, @Forever_Jung, that there might be better approaches that would make more progress from a societal perspective. And I appreciate friendliness from strangers including men and I am typically friendly back. I don't know where this idea that I'd be giving dudes the stinkeye for saying hello came from. I think in my very first post on this topic I said pretty much the opposite of that. There are just a few specific things that I'm too nervous to do- like be alone in an isolated and/or poorly-lit public space with a stranger, even a really nice one. I just know my physical strength is not great and my voice doesn't carry so I prefer to be careful.
    Well, I did reference your dad, but I definitely wasn't accusing you of saying that. I might have read it wrong (truthfully, I'm reading this thread while watching TV, so I'm a bit distracted), but I got the impression people were saying that things like avoiding getting on elevators with women was the way men SHOULD act in this tough world, at least until we build more trust.

    Like I said, I think that your dad's actions are sweet (no familiar bias required), and I would never try to talk someone out of doing that. I was just stating that I personally don't think it's the best way to act, if we are to build trust. I think I was doing the Fi equivalent of Ti-nitpicking I wasn't trying to put anyone's point of view down, just trying to clarify and discuss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    i think you build trust when not in a compromised position. i get in elevators all the time with men when out in a public place with plenty of people around. i make small talk etc and treat them the same as i would anyone.

    but a few weeks ago when i was at the hospital and saw three dudes who were apparently drunk and pointing to each other to check some girl out and one dude holding his dick and they just looked like trouble...i didn't get on the elevator with them. it was like 4am...not many people around.
    Oh yeah I get that. That's not what I was saying. Read the last little paragraph on my post, I literally said the opposite of what you're responding to. We totally agree with one another

    I'm not saying women shouldn't take precautions, they should take as much as they need to feel safe. I was just saying, when interacting with women, I'm not going to avoid them in case they're afraid of me, because I know I'm not going to harm them. Maybe I can even build a small little bit of trust in that interaction. At any rate, you're not going to build trust if you just keep men and women separate.

  3. #433
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Well, I did reference your dad, but I definitely wasn't accusing you of saying that. I might have read it wrong (truthfully, I'm reading this thread while watching TV, so I'm a bit distracted), but I got the impression people were saying that things like avoiding getting on elevators with women was the way men SHOULD act in this tough world, at least until we build more trust.

    Like I said, I think that your dad's actions are sweet (no familiar bias required), and I would never try to talk someone out of doing that. I was just stating that I personally don't think it's the best way to act, if we are to build trust. I think I was doing the Fi equivalent of Ti-nitpicking I wasn't trying to put anyone's point of view down, just trying to clarify and discuss.
    Thank you, I appreciate that. I didn't think you were accusing me of anything- just wanted to clarify because it seemed like an offhand comment I made about my dad was being spun (not by you) into something I was prescribing for all men everywhere.

  4. #434
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Well, I did reference your dad, but I definitely wasn't accusing you of saying that. I might have read it wrong (truthfully, I'm reading this thread while watching TV, so I'm a bit distracted), but I got the impression people were saying that things like avoiding getting on elevators with women was the way men SHOULD act in this tough world, at least until we build more trust.

    Like I said, I think that your dad's actions are sweet (no familiar bias required), and I would never try to talk someone out of doing that. I was just stating that I personally don't think it's the best way to act, if we are to build trust. I think I was doing the Fi equivalent of Ti-nitpicking I wasn't trying to put anyone's point of view down, just trying to clarify and discuss.



    Oh yeah I get that. That's not what I was saying. Read the last little paragraph on my post, I literally said the opposite of what you're responding to.

    I'm not saying women shouldn't take precautions, they should take as much as they need to feel safe. I was just saying, when interacting with women, I'm not going to avoid them in case they're afraid of me, because I know I'm not going to harm them. Maybe I can even build a small little bit of trust in that interaction. At any rate, you're not going to build trust if you just keep men and women separate.
    yeah no for sure i wasn't actually saying anything different or on the opposite side of what you were saying...just adding to it like sure that makes sense in most cases but sometimes it's just safer not to.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #435
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    i think you build trust when not in a compromised position. i get in elevators all the time with men when out in a public place with plenty of people around. i make small talk etc and treat them the same as i would anyone.

    but a few weeks ago when i was at the hospital and saw three dudes who were apparently drunk and pointing to each other to check some girl out and one dude holding his dick and they just looked like trouble...i didn't get on the elevator with them. it was like 4am...not many people around.
    Good move.

    I wouldn't have gotten on the elevator with them either
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #436
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    All I know is I'm getting on the elevator.
    You are, in a word, crazy. Wait... concealed carry right? *nods approvingly* Carry on.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #437
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    I believe it does, yes.

    I also think it would be extremely helpful if a set of rules or guidelines on acceptable conduct toward women could be universally agreed upon.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  8. #438
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    This topic is tricky because men will tend to hear female criticism as accusatory (and few things feel more outrageous than being associated with rape in any way), while women will tend to hear male criticism as condoning (which is just as revolting). Ultimately, that results in a vicious cycle with no winners.

  9. #439
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Not trying to be mean, but I genuinely don't understand. Wouldn't getting on the elevator and not raping them (maybe starting friendly small talk about the weather instead?) be a good way to build trust? How can avoiding the situation build trust? Staying away from people is no way to break down barriers of trust. I think it's really sweet of Ivy's dad to be so considerate of women's feelings, I just don't think we'll get very far with that approach, in a big picture sense.

    I don't blame women for not getting on the elevator, I only mean, I know I'm not going to rape them, so can't I get on if they're already on it?
    You most definitely can. It is just sweet to see someone realise what position they might put you in (where you have to be on guard) and realise that - to give you your space. It is *one* way of showing that you are aware of personal boundaries and won't be breaching them - which in term lets the woman in question take a breather for just this once. But sure enough, there are plenty of other ways to counter the first red flags - smiling, nodding and then focusing on something else while you get in, for instance. People who smile and nod, to then stare are unnerving. Especially when you're confined in a small space where you *have* to be inside each others personal bubble.

    But even taking it out on the streets. When a guy notices me but doesn't linger on me, perhaps just nods and walks by me as he gets on his way way, I'm personally a lot less on edge than a guy who looks like he is either brooding and approaching rapidly, or clearly has noticed me, with or without smile and is staying focused on me.

    It is the lack of connection, the way they look at you as a goal to acquire that makes the difference. And it is a *VERY* different gaze. And then there are the pros who will fake this friendliness to actually sneak up on you, but few are ever *that* skilled or can even be arsed to put energy into it - only those that game the game for the love of gaming.

    I'm a bit embarrassed to say, I never realized that women deal with the constant fear of being raped until the last year or so, so I'm not used to thinking in these terms yet. None of my close female friends/family ever really articulated this to me. I mean, I would walk a girl home and all that, but I didn't think of it as such a real, omnipresent threat.
    There is a reason we don't - it gets misunderstood or dismissed. I got told - by mostly females even - that I should stop 'bragging' about being harassed at 16, and to take it as a compliment. Hell, I even got told that I was 'probably ugly enough so they felt they had a shot with me.' You learn quick to shut your trap about being harassed that way. It's ingrained that this is just...well, the way men are and that's something you just have to deal with- I'd personally like to change those kind of messages - for both men and women. Ask any of your friends - one day, without pressure. Just about every woman I know has a story or two to tell.

    See, this lack of awareness with men is exactly why it is so hard to talk about it with them. There is a wall of 'what are you talking about???' there, if you don't get straight out gaslit for daring to suggest that these things happen fairly regularly. And it is not their fault; it is understandable - guys don't go through this and most of this stuff happens when you're alone as a woman. There is no way for them to compare it to their own reality - kind of like we cannot fathom what it is like to be kicked in the nuts, making it sometimes hard to empathise with that for us, for instance. Heck, even my own INTJ didn't always believe me and rolled his eyes at me. He was doing just that while I was telling him about the guy who kissed me in the mall on my way to see him, when another guy made a level one comment to me in the street - as i was walking down it with him, telling the story. His jaw dropped. Meanwhile I just looked at him and went 'You were saying?'

    To me...this shit was normal. To the point where comments and words don't even register anymore. And yet, Ive seen good guys who were with me when it happened (coz the other guy didn't realise or didn't care they were there) dropping their jaw and getting completely outraged when it happens at just a verbal level alone coz they cannot FATHOM that you would do that to a woman.

    Unfortunately, it is exactly the fact that they cannot fathom it that makes it so hard to convince them that this is the world we live in when they aint around
    You're right - it SHOULD BE unfathomable. And honest to god - I wish I could afford myself the outrage you guys display when it does happen. Unfortunately, it is too common and often too risky for me to do so - so I navigate it as best I can instead, hoping this is something we can fix at some point as a society. And yes, I'm fucking angry that I have to be hyper vigilant like this and paranoid like this all the time considering that is not the kind of person I naturally am. That my benefit-of-the-doubt attitude gets/got me punished with this crap as they test how far they can get with you.

    So far, my solution has been to stay home and work there. Problem solved - no need to navigate people who cannot understand the concept of 'No' there. Unfortunately, this isn't an option, nor should it be the only one to most women out there.

    As for trust-building...I agree that this is necessary, but unfortunately with these behaviours being so common, it's not going to do any good until a 'No' --even on a smaller level like 'no, Im not interested.' when asked for your name or phone number -- doesn't get followed up by 15 minutes of demanding the answers, but actually respected. If that first 'no' gets dismissed that easily...why in the hell would I trust him to take note of the next one? So yes, trust-building is great, but the elevator 'trust' building won't do any good until you get the majority of men on board and actually establish leaving a girl alone or respecting her right to end the convo as the actual norm in society.

    And, again, the same goes for women who do this shit to others (both men and women). If we want true equality, it is about time that a guy doesn't have to put up with unreasonable demands because we are such 'frail creatures that need protecting and our acts is harmless anyways'. I think for men dealing with these kind of women, it is more a matter of confusion, embarrassment and feeling ashamed as you don't know how to handle it and society tells you you're supposed to as the man - unless she is threatening to take away your children etc - whereas for women it is more experienced in both confusion and fear due to the physical difference, with shame being the aftermath (what did I do to encourage this?).




    ***************
    For those reading this thread:

    K, I know this borders on spamming, but it warrants repeating for those who want to understand this phenomenon better: a gentleman's guide to 'rape culture'.

    Later, I approached a writer I respect. I asked her to write an article with me, wherein she'd explain rape culture to me and to male readers. She stopped returning my emails. At first, I was annoyed. Then as it became clear she wasn't going to respond at all, I actually got mad. Luckily, I've learned one shouldn't immediately respond when they feel flashes of anger.
    Blocks from my house, in front of a car wash it dawned on me. If rape culture is so important to me I needed to find out for my self what it is. No woman owes me her time just because I want to know about something she inherently understands. No woman should feel she has to explain rape culture to me just because I want to know what it is. No woman owes me shit. I saw how my desire for a woman to satisfy me ran deep. Even my curiosity, a trait that always made me proud, was marred with the same sort of male-centric presumption that fuels rape culture. I expected to be satisfied. That attitude is the problem. I started reading and kept reading until I understood rape culture and my part in it.
    The article goes on identifying key points of how 'rape culture' manifests and what decent men can do to help reverse it. As this was written due to the recent events, I haven't found a similar one for women (addressing their entitlement behaviours), just yet.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  10. #440
    Assassin from the future Qloshae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    please clarify something for me..do you have a wife, girlfriend or daughter?

    if you do or when you do have a daughter what will you teach her about protecting herself from strangers?

    also...have you ever been in a personal situation where you felt vulnerable physically? how did you handle it?
    I don't get into situations where I am physically vulnerable because I can smell them a kilometer away and most people are vocal rather than physical.

    I'd teach her not to be afraid, but to always be prepared. It doesn't really matter if you are a man or a woman, you never know if someone around you is psychologically unstable and thinks you are looking at them or not looking at them the wrong way.
    If she'd go day out and day in feeling afraid of the possibility of being raped and planning her daily life based on that fear, I'd have failed her.
    I wouldn't teach fear, I would teach methods to feel safer, tho I may still teach her that everyone has their own goals with what they do and not all of them are good.

    Tho besides, most rapes are done by someone they know and most rapes are done somewhere you let your guard down. Which means, you are more likely to be raped at home by your boyfriend who believes the tag "boyfriend" means he can have sex with you no matter if you want it or not, or by that close friend who considers himself "friend zoned", rather than a stranger in an elevator. Which really just reinforces what I said earlier about entitlement.
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