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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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Results 421 to 430 of 567

  1. #421
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Nobody has to leave. I'm perfectly capable of being in charge of where I go by myself and with whom I will go there. I'm not asking anyone to make any special concessions to me, but it would be super nice if people didn't get their feathers ruffled by what I choose to do to protect myself as a matter of policy in isolated public spaces. I promise it's not personal.

  2. #422
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    thanks for saying that. i really am surprised by such reactions. wouldn't you want your wife, girlfriend or daughter to be smart about her personal safety too?

    i would think most men would feel better knowing the women in their lives took precautions like this.

    it's as tho some of these men would teach their daughter that this behavior was impolite.

    would you wish for them that they be so trusting as to never be wary of men they don't know?
    Yeah, I think people should be proactive.

    I think part of the problem is that a lot of the messaging around this issue isn't pro-active enough. I think a lot of men are hearing don't do this and don't do that, but they're not hearing a consistent message of what they should do and they find it difficult. Part of that really is caused by a libertine western society where there seems to plenty of don'ts and maybe one of the biggest don'ts is don't tell other people what to do. But, frankly I think without complementary do's and don'ts there can be some mixed messaging. Ross Douthat has been writing about this over the past week or so at the NY Times and I'll see if I can dig some of that up.

  3. #423
    Assassin from the future Qloshae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I am. Youre just not seeing it, which is understandable.

    Meanwhile, i cannot help that my daily reality offends you so. It certainly offends me as well but until that system is brought down, i still have to live and deal with it the best way i know how. And it would help if you understood that. Of course, it is your choice to go 'lalala' instead - you actually have the luxury of ignoring this particular problem and can choose to believe it doesnt exist

    And youre right- entitlement should be adressed across the genders. No argument there.
    Well, until you have dropped the patronizing way of writing and the ad hominems, don't expect anyone to rally beside you.
    Problem with discussing feminism seems to be that 95% of times it ends with someone attacking the other individual rather than the argument or even continuing a discussion. Thank you for adding to that.
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  4. #424
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qloshae View Post
    I'd say because the "I don't want to be in an elevator with you" comes with "I think you are a rapist because you have a dick".
    please clarify something for me..do you have a wife, girlfriend or daughter?

    if you do or when you do have a daughter what will you teach her about protecting herself from strangers?

    also...have you ever been in a personal situation where you felt vulnerable physically? how did you handle it?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #425
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qloshae View Post
    Well, until you have dropped the patronizing way of writing and the ad hominems, don't expect anyone to rally beside you.
    Problem with discussing feminism seems to be that 95% of times it ends with someone attacking the other individual rather than the argument or even continuing a discussion. Thank you for adding to that.


    You invalidated my experiences and it is an ad hominem when i call your attention to the fact that you still have not acknowledged or resolved the problem im talking about here and instead prefer to dismiss it? I even acknowledged that you certaimly could do so but yes - that would be wishful thinking on my part to try that. I just dont have that luxury

    It wasnt condescending or an ad hominem - just an inconvenient truth

    Anycase
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  6. #426
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qloshae View Post
    I'd say because the "I don't want to be in an elevator with you" comes with "I think you are a rapist because you have a dick".
    It's not about thinking I'm a rapist. It's about trust. And even though the risk might be extremely low the cost of being wrong is high enough for me to not be offended for her not trusting me as long as she's not overtly rude about it.

  7. #427
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    again thanks for that. exactly. trust is earned. it's not something strangers typically share.

    that's the bare bones of it.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  8. #428
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    He doesn't quite make the exact point I was making, but i think it's still worth reading.

    And so then for today’s toxic, self-deluded bachelors, it’s worth asking which image of masculinity is more likely to be leading them astray — a doomed attempt to “think their way” into some traditional, pre-sexual revolution masculine ideal, with its stress on self-mastery, self-containment, and self-possession, or the hapless pursuit of an ideal that I called “Hefnerian” in my Sunday column, with its vision of the world as primarily a field for sexual conquest, and traditional morality as the prison that needs to be escaped? Is it reasonable to describe today’s young male chauvinists, whether they’re running Silicon Valley startups or lurking in the darker corners of the internet, as prisoners of chivalry, as slaves to antiquated fantasies of dignity and honor, as straitjacketed by an ideal of gentlemanly conduct? Or are they trying to live up to a very different, much more current vision of the male good life, one that gained ground almost simultaneously with modern cultural liberalism, and that partakes more of post-1960s ideas about liberation and expressive individualism than it does of anything that deserves to be called “traditional”?

    ...

    One possible rejoinder to these points is that even the positive-seeming aspects of Victorian or Old Hollywood images of masculinity depended on the sense of “entitlement” and the ”unthinking acceptance of the gender hierarchy” that De Boer (quite accurately) describes as central features of those eras, and so today’s more debased “ideal” is basically what’s left when the patriarchy can no longer promise men power in exchange for self-restraint, privilege in exchange for self-containment. Another possible rejoinder is that the traditional ideal was just a pure self-serving fabrication, that the Good Men of art and literature were always, inevitably Don Draper or Pete Campbell in real life.

    I think the first rejoinder is partially fair (and gets at why a simple “neo-traditionalism” is problematic), the second one less so. But neither of them gets you to a “traditional masculinity needs to die” prescription for contemporary male problems. That is, the first implies that the older model is irrecoverable (and for good reasons), the second that it was just a self-serving lie … but neither explains why this lost/imaginary ideal needs to be constantly held up as the dragon that we still desperately need to slay today, the vanished Snowball who’s still somehow sabotaging our utopia, the prison from which our young men supposedly can’t escape even though its walls were torn down long ago.

    Which is basically the root of my disagreement with the left’s writers on a lot of these issues. They look at the state of sex and gender, masculinity and femininity, and see an uncomplicatedly progressive social revolution that just hasn’t fully succeeded yet — that hasn’t brought men, especially, into the sunlit uplands of egalitarian enlightenment — because far too many “traditional” concepts and constraints still perdure. I see a social revolution that has brought good and bad, intermixed, and whose supporters could profit from the realization that some of the human goods they seek are actually more clearly visible behind us, somewhere back in a cultural past they still insist they’re fighting to overthrow, whose actual details the darkness of forgetting has almost swallowed up.
    http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/201...gs&region=Body

  9. #429
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    And how sad it is that our society has come to that. But yes, that is what it is. And NOBODY likes it. So I suggest we all get off our asses and start earning back each others trust.
    Not trying to be mean, but I genuinely don't understand. Wouldn't getting on the elevator and not raping them (maybe starting friendly small talk about the weather instead?) be a good way to build trust? How can avoiding the situation build trust? Staying away from people is no way to break down barriers of trust. I think it's really sweet of Ivy's dad to be so considerate of women's feelings, I just don't think we'll get very far with that approach, in a big picture sense.

    I don't blame women for not getting on the elevator, I only mean, I know I'm not going to rape them, so can't I get on if they're already on it?

    I'm a bit embarrassed to say, I never realized that women deal with the constant fear of being raped until the last year or so, so I'm not used to thinking in these terms yet. None of my close female friends/family ever really articulated this to me. I mean, I would walk a girl home and all that, but I didn't think of it as such a real, omnipresent threat.

  10. #430
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    For the record I have never asked nor indicated that I think men should avoid getting on elevators with women. I just think my dad is a sweet guy so I guess I'm pre-inclined to think things he does are sweet. I agree with you, @Forever_Jung, that there might be better approaches that would make more progress from a societal perspective. And I appreciate friendliness from strangers including men and I am typically friendly back. I don't know where this idea that I'd be giving dudes the stinkeye for saying hello came from. I think in my very first post on this topic I said pretty much the opposite of that. There are just a few specific things that I'm too nervous to do- like be alone in an isolated and/or poorly-lit public space with a stranger, even a really nice one. I just know my physical strength is not great and my voice doesn't carry so I prefer to be careful.

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