I think what's funny is that we have three madmins who have participated just in the last couple hours in this thread to try to persuade half the board's membership that the burden is on them to jump through hoops every time they are around women just to prove that they are not violent criminals. Isn't this what whites sometimes say to blacks--"You're all thugs until you prove otherwise"? How about "Innocent until proven guilty"?
And this is happening on a Typology website. Blah!
What the hell? Again, you're entirely misreading me if you think this is anything like what I'm saying. I certainly do not expect you to jump through ANY hoops to prove anything- I've said MULTIPLE times that I don't think you're guilty of ANYTHING and that that's true of most men. I just don't understand why it offends you that your good intentions- and I have no doubt that they are good- are invisible from the outside.
It's like you're personally affronted that women protect themselves out of habit and don't make an exception for you even when you're really nice to them. It's almost as if you're saying that the habits that are drilled into women from practically birth are an indictment of you personally. Like I said earlier, it's a subroutine- it is in no way personal to anyone specific. It's not an assumption that "all men are rapists." I certainly don't think that.
Just sounds like the same old tired feminist guilt trip to me. You dismiss my point of view, and I'll dismiss yours.
am i right to assume the term feminist is meant to be derogatory there? it's not personally offensive to me tho the implication that i may be trying to guilt trip someone by attempting to expand their view on feminine issues is. or "people" issues rather because i do find it's an issue for people in general.
anyone in a position to be taken advantage of or harmed in this way is affected. my father was. i don't see it as a woman issue primarily. however we are often at a physical disadvantage more so than men are. that's just reality.
it's not blame and it's no guilt trip.
There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
That's fine. Nobody is asking you not to. I wouldn't get on with you if the elevator is in an isolated place, but that's not because I think you're a threat to me specifically- it's just policy.
I thought it was remarkable that my dad said he would wait for the next elevator to avoid even the possibility of making someone feel unsafe. It's not something I expect of all or any other men- that's why it was remarkable. It just seemed gentlemanly to me. He's a very old-fashioned, chivalrous man. I though you were into that stuff.
You learn, as you grow older - and yes, you run the risk. When you get stopped by (sometimes even groups of) guys every day, and forced to kiss them on the street, you learn. (in my case) you learn to charm them, politely smile so they'll let you go while refusing their demands on knowing your number, address, name, etc.
You may not be this kind of man - but when I went out to work instead of working at home, I met them every day. And they all felt they were harmless, and entitled to my answers and touching me coz 'hey, they were just talking to me and being friendly'
It sucks that it ruins things and makes it harder for men and women who just want to get to know one another. It does. But, I'm sorry - your feeling judged because you do not understand this is not personal does not warrant me playing russian roulette with my body. What other women do is entirely their decision. I used to and still do occasionally give people the benefit of the doubt - and it got me groped, restrained, followed, stalked, kissed and wasted away wayyyy too much time in me trying to be polite and non-judgemental to those people. And they played right into that, taking advantage and refusing to hear my polite 'no's'.
The fact that you cannot understand that is however not my problem - my priority is keeping myself safe. And yes, I do feel frustrated and infuriated that this is the way things are atm. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here trying to help raise awareness and sort this issue out coz I actually *like* hanging out with guys - I tend to be one of em when they're my friends. And I'd love to do that without having to do a background check on each and every one of em. Seriously, most women *love* men, or we wouldn't, as you stated, take those risks in the first place. We're just as much drawn to you as you are to us - so yes, we do take the risk to learn how to recognise which guys are a threat to us and which aren't - and we do make mistakes there, for sure.
Edit: the thing is - we 're on the same page as to how it should work in theory. And, as you prefer (and me as well), I for many years did give guys the benefit of the doubt and had some amazing conversations that way as well - but honestly, looking back...the risks I took and the stuff I had to endure to make that happen...It's just not something that is practically applicable at this point in time - which is a damn shame. The amount of energy I had to pour into navigating their egos, avoiding letting it get out of hand and undo-ing the effects of just simply smiling at them...it honestly isn't worth it. Especially not when you're just trying to get home after a long day at work. I wish for nothing more than that what I tried for several years to be worthwhile (and don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the guys i did meet that way and what I learned), but ime, at present, it just aint
Well, maybe it just isn't that way here, because I've heard oh so many hours of girls talking out to other girls, to me, etc. and I can't think of any time something as you described has happened. The only vivid memory of anything of the kind was when 3 guys threw probably 20 condoms at me because I sat next to a girl they decided to openly talk about and how they screamed of joy when I ignorantly decided to sit next to her as I went on the buss (right before they decided to throw the condoms).
Then again, many times I've been told "all men care about is sex" or all the other sexist comments aimed at demoralizing men by criticizing our intelligence, so why are women surprised when that happens? If you keep accusing people of something, somewhere along the line they stop caring and assimilate the behavior you ascribe to them.
Women call men idiotic perverts who feel entitled to the bodies of women, raise men with that kind of attitude against men and then whine because some men turn out behaving that way. Then they blame the rest of the male population and wonder why some men commit suicide.
Want to solve the problem? Attack the system, not the male gender.
In that metaphor, only rapists are equated to poisoned M&Ms. What the actual fuck.
And you're being deliberately dense. Here's what you said:
As for "I'm not a rapist, her fears don't apply to me"-- that is all well and good, and I appreciate that you're not a rapist. Really and truly, I do. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing that about you at a glance, and the fucking depressing numbers about the percentages of women who will at some point be assaulted or raped are not very comforting. I read a good metaphor for this recently: imagine you're offered a bowl of M&Ms. Five percent of them are poison. How comfortable do you feel reaching in for a handful and chowing down? It's possible to acknowledge that most men are good (I actually think most people in general are basically good) and also acknowledge that it's difficult or impossible to identify the ones who aren't. (Having said that, I smile at strangers when they say hello to me, and often when they don't- but I wouldn't get into a parking deck elevator with you alone. Don't worry, I'll come up with some kind of excuse to spare your feelings so I don't make you feel like a big mean rapist.)
Put it in black and white terms: "I know most blacks aren't gangsters. But I shouldn't have to be around black people in case I run into the ones who are. So you blacks should leave when I come around."