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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #351
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    As you say, "rape is about power" and not sex why do men rape each other in prison?
    Why do "heterosexual" men rape other men in prison if it ISN'T about power?

    Is it your contention that power dynamics are not important in prison? How can you justify such a claim? Male prisons are organised around hypermasculine, profoundly hierarchical lines. Making someone your "bitch" is about as undiluted an exercise in male-on-male subjugation as can be imagined.

    Do you think the rape of elderly women by young men is a "crime of passion"?
    Why do young men rape elderly women? And why does nobody care?: A special report by Linda Grant on a shocking crime which it seems we all prefer to ignore - Life & Style - The Independent
    WHAT of the rapists themselves? Little if any work has been done on men who rape elderly women. Dr Mezey says her interviews indicate that they are very hostile to women and feel belittled by them. Since Susan Brownmiller's landmark study of the mid-Seventies, Against Our Will, it has been understood that rape is not about sex but power. One theory put forward in an American study holds that older women symbolise an authority figure over whom the offender wants control or an actual woman against whom he wants to avenge himself. The desire, in such rapes, is not for sex but for the degradation, hurt and humiliation of the victim. 'How did he get an erection?', we guiltily wonder. The arousal may come from rage, nervous excitement or fear, as is suggested by the evidence of rapes in wartime. Others argue that these rapists are simply woman haters, and older women may just be easier to attack because of their vulnerability.
    What is your explanation for this phenomenon ?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    The reality is, more men are raped each year than women when you factor in prison rape.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpankMcFly
    The vast majority of rapes occur within the general pop.
    Are you aware that both of these things cannot simultaneously be true, (unless more men than women are also are raped in the general population, in which case, why make a special case of prison rape)?

    Why is the profile of the victim such a contentious issue for you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  2. #352
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Verbiage and framing of issues has become important mainly because too many people are too lazy to look critically at the issue itself.
    This. It really does seem lazy -- and it derails the conversation, making it about YOU (i.e. the offended party, not you, Coriolis), when before it was about the victims.

    #NotAllMen: How Not To Derail Discussions of Women's Issues

    Not exactly the same topic, but similar in many ways.
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  3. #353
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Perhaps I can explain why "rape" isn't the way to communicate that terror:
    • When a woman hears "rape", she feels fear.
    • When a man hears "rape", he hears an accusation.

    Perhaps the words "afraid" or "scared" would have the emotional impact you desire, without causing men to hear an implicit accusation.
    Sorry if you feel singled out, uumlau, but you are a mod, so you should probably expect more scrutiny than others, given that you are in some ways responsible for setting the tone.

    I'm not sure if you realise that you told women not to talk about Rape because it might make men feel uncomfortable. I'm pretty sure if you did realise that, you would know what's so very wrong with it.
    Are you suggesting men are only comfortable talking about rape when they're making a joke of it? Or using it as a casual threat? Or singing along about it to the most successful songs of the year ?
    It's a pity you don't want to talk about it, because you're exactly the kind of person who could most benefit, I.e. one who isn't fundamentally hostile to women but nevertheless harbours some pretty anachronistic, oppressive ideas which harm women directly.

    You are telling women (and men) how they feel about rape. Not all women feel afraid. I'm not afraid; I'm angry that there are large numbers of men who behave as if they're entitled to women's bodies. Not all men feel accused. Some are victims of rape. Many recognise that rape has nothing whatsoever to do with normal human sexuality. The only possible reason for imagining that an attack on rape is an attack on you, is if you imagine rape to be your right - otherwise it's just an irrational persecution complex, and should be regarded as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    "Culture of fear" maybe, emphasizing the fear that women have to live with every day? From my reading, and my own experience, I find that explaining that fear inspires the "You have to put up with THAT?! Every day?!" response, along with possible comments along the lines of, "I'm gonna have a word or two with my buds on how they talk with you or about you." Take advantage of the natural protective instincts of men towards women!
    Rape is a criminal act. To substitute a word describing an emotion that might or might not arise as a result of said act is to miss the point and distort the conversation completely. The issue isn't about feelings. It's about crime prevention. For someone who claims to be concerned about using "correct" terminology you've done a particularly poor job, given that "fear culture" means pretty much the opposite of what we're talking about here. Or perhaps you knew that and were being facetious... Either way, you were mansplaining. In a thread about rape. Don't be that guy.

    It's not a man's job to "protect" women from rape. Like all crime, that's what our judicial and law enforcement agencies are for. If they aren't doing their job properly (and they aren't) the answer is not vigilantism. Instead of male escort, a more effective use of your time (if you really care about this )would be campaigning for a change in the judicial system, or at least educating yourself about what the issues are. Your re-education of other men is to be encouraged too. But it's not a woman's job to solicit a man's assistance like some helpless damsel-in-distress - as if rape is something all women should expect as an inevitable consequence of their daring to exist, unless there happens to be a convenient uumlau hanging around. In any event, a man isn't a talisman against getting raped by a psychopathic masked stranger. That's what we call a Rape Myth. That you think that way is (yeah, sorry) part of the Rape Culture that is being challenged here. The one you think doesn't exist. Being immersed in something makes it difficult to see it clearly, especially if you're invested in not seeing it at all.

    So instead of repeating ill-informed myths, let's look at the facts in your part of the world:

    90% of murderers are male
    99% of rapists are male
    94% of female homicide victims are murdered by a man they know
    73% of rapes are perpetrated by a non-stranger
    (source:US DoJ)

    In various studies where American men were interviewed about their rape proclivity, between 35 and 70% of them said they would rape someone if they could get away with it.


    Given that this is self-report about something the participants knew to be a crime, it's not unreasonable to suppose that the true figure is higher than that. Unsurprisingly, Rape Proclivity is strongly correlated with Rape Myth Acceptance. http://www.taasa.org/library/pdfs/TAASALibrary98.pdf

    Therefore, (and please don't take this the wrong way) statistically speaking, a female acquaintance walking to her car has more to legitimately fear from you than from a stranger lurking in the bushes.
    So much for those "protective instincts".

    Logically then, a woman would be better served by learning how to defend *herself*, than by relying on the goodwill of a passing uumlau, even if that doesn't serve the 'benevolently sexist' white knight fantasy of your belief system quite so well.

    The idea that women need men or else they run the risk of being raped is a patriarchy-serving lie which finds its cruelest ironies in places where male elders suggest that the answer to young girls being gang-raped is that they be forced into marriage as soon as they hit puberty; or places where rapists can avoid conviction by marrying the victim - against her will. What's the answer to rape? Why more rape of course! Just the "right" kind of rape.
    Fish, bicycles, etc.

    I'm not picking on you, I'm sure there are worse examples of ignorance on display, but I don't have the time or inclination to read the whole thread. This is not even a question worthy of debate. Of course, Rape Culture is real. It's simply a matter of degree.

    From cultures where women are routinely gang-raped as punishment...

    Village elders 'order gang-rape of young woman as punishment for relationship with outsider' - Asia - World - The Independent
    India state minister on rape: 'Sometimes it's right, sometimes it's wrong' | World news | theguardian.com
    Indonesian gang-rape victim faces caning | World news | theguardian.com

    To those where the accountability for rape is laid at the victim's/potential victim's door, rather than the perps, like your's, and mine.
    This is rape culture

    There's a summit happening here today about Ending Sexual Violence in Conflict - an acknowledgement of the fact that rape is regarded as a legitimate tool of war, and in the aftermath, it is the victims and not the aggressors who are stigmatised.
    The way we think about crime is a really important part of tackling that crime. So it is essential to examine the "culture" these crimes are embedded in. Yes, there's a risk some really silly people will try to label all sorts of merely irritating things as symptomatic of a Rape Culture that they don't understand. That means we need to talk about it MORE, not less. Since when was silence the best tool for fighting ignorance?

    Regarding your "Women should..." advice, why not try reframing your statements about rape prevention with "Men should..." instead? As you say, we've been talking about this stuff for decades and telling women what they should do has done nothing to resolve it. Partly because the information is based on myth, and partly because advising women how to avoid rape is tantamount to saying: "Make sure he rapes some other girl instead of you."

    Here's a list of top tips to get you started:


    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #354
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Exactly; whose side are you on?

    Feminists don't give a damn about sharia and are happy to march alongside hardcore Islamic types. They only hate white men. This tells me a lot about their beliefs and motivations.

    On the Western feminist love affair with Islam. | Sunshine Mary
    The <Pro-Woman/Muslim> false dichotomy has been a point of contention between pro-western and post-colonial feminists for a while now. The emerging embrace of liberal Islam is in part a product of cross-dialogue that has for good reason strove to finally topple it and in rarer part a product of the same hegemonic savior complex that originally proposed it. Yet and still in either circumstance, I severely doubt that you will find most liberal feminists marching alongside "hardcore Islamic types". Are the Ayatollah Khomeinis of the world receiving Girl Power stickers? Are the Hebah Ahmeds even?

    I'm going to take a small leap of logic here and guess that you and your source are painting Islam in itself as "hardcore" and any non-hegemonists as anti-white "Islamophiles" in turn.

    Good news: if you believe Islam and feminism are co-conspirators for 'the global fall of western virtues' (read: "a threat to western cultural supremacy"), you have a little more in common with the hegemonists than you think.

    Your source declares, in a single sentence, all that isn't white or male to be indecent.

    And so essentially, a white supremacist Christian housewife who sees her "God-given" biological reality to be indecent - and who seemingly cannot differentiate between a surah and a hadith - is the true unbiased voice of clarity on women and Islam?






    Does she know that her god is Semitic?

  5. #355
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    When you treat people like animals, they frequently end up acting like them.

    Respect is a two way street.

  6. #356
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    When you treat people like animals, they frequently end up acting like them.

    Respect is a two way street.
    what exactly is this supposed to mean?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    what exactly is this supposed to mean?
    It means exactly what it says.

  8. #358
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It means exactly what it says.
    no i think i need you to spell that out.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #359
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I'm assuming you mean that men are treated like animals by women and that this is why there is rape.

    Why was there no similar epidemic when women were considered their father or husband's property? I can't think of a situation that would better fit the description of "being treated like animals" than that.

  10. #360
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qloshae View Post
    I voted no because I wouldn't say "rape culture", rather a "rape subculture" that believes rape is ok, the distinction is important.
    The former is still aimed at warning victims (which is why the discussion on rape culture started to begin with), the latter calls the mentality a choice.
    Thing is, if something is innate, you can't be blamed for it, if it is a choice you can. Which is why people with mental illnesses get lighter punishments (since they are considered mentally compromised).
    Which brings us to another problem, if it is a subculture, you can't persecute them because they are a cultural minority. If you persecute a culture you are committing a cultural persecution. Both of which are on the level of racism, sexism and all those nasty words.
    culture: definition of culture in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)

    How will this tag of "rape subculture" bring more equality tho?
    I mean, it really won't since most people are already aware that rape is a problem that needs to be dealt with, it is just gonna be a harassment term to throw at men who don't agree with you.
    In the end, you are biting half the hand that feeds you as those men you will accuse of supporting this rape subculture will only be offended if they are actually against rape, those who don't give a shit about women won't really care if you throw that term at them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Entitlement culture might be better though is a wider area still than rape culture addresses. But it stems from the sameroot so it might just work
    I like this post.. Entitlement encompasses some of the things women dislike about these issues, plus the subculture of sociopaths that rape for power/dominance, without some of the implications that watching rap videos (sorry rap to keep using you like this) will make you a rapist. It's a far more PC title.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    This. It really does seem lazy -- and it derails the conversation, making it about YOU (i.e. the offended party, not you, Coriolis), when before it was about the victims.

    #NotAllMen: How Not To Derail Discussions of Women's Issues

    Not exactly the same topic, but similar in many ways.
    I find it a little important because the OP isn't 'do women's issues exist?' but does rape culture exist? Defining it is important then--because I say, "Yeah, it exists because of the content, but I dislike the name.." and someone else can say "No, it doesn't exist, but its because I believe that content is filed under something else." Drawing these lines is important to the discussion.
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