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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #321
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    There's really nothing in it for men to say, "Oh, yeah, I support anti-rape culture movements" without having some baggage and shame. It alienates men. It's insane how far away men are pushed from women--and it's the opposite of how things get fixed. Anger and outrage rarely fix anything.
    I disagree. Men working against rape culture is no different from whites working against racism, or Christians working against anti-semitism. We don't need personal baggage and shame to understand there is a broader problem that we want to help fix. For those of us who do have baggage, it should be addressed in any case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Actually "bitches" who walk assertively, aren't overly "nice" to strangers, who have some idea how to speak up and defend themselves are less likely to be victims. Of strangers, at least.
    That kind of assertiveness is a good start when dealing with the would-be rapist you know as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    No you are talking about sociopaths, and all rapists are not serial rapists who lurk in the bushes, that is such a distraction from the fact that many rapists don't look like rapists.
    Most rapists are not sociopaths who prey on strangers, but most also commit more than one rape. That is why it is so important for victims to report rapes and help get the culprit off the streets.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #322
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I disagree. Men working against rape culture is no different from whites working against racism, or Christians working against anti-semitism. We don't need personal baggage and shame to understand there is a broader problem that we want to help fix.
    The difference in tone here is that the general sentiment perceived by men is overwhelmingly that they feel isolated and alienated and hated by feminists no matter what they do. There were plenty of instances where black people welcomed support. And while there are always individual situations to be exceptions to the rule, there is a lot of backlash and us vs them mentalities that basically tell men they're part of the problem no matter what they do. The proponents that are the loudest call for men to work with them while simultaneously blaming them. They leave their hand in it all out of the equation.

    Black people knew they needed white people on their side too to break down racism. Feminists give the impression we'd be better off without them. While that's not true at all, that's the message I frequently hear from men. And I don't find it a logical stretch with the current sensationalist attitude.
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  3. #323
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The difference in tone here is that the general sentiment perceived by men is overwhelmingly that they feel isolated and alienated and hated by feminists no matter what they do. There were plenty of instances where black people welcomed support. And while there are always individual situations to be exceptions to the rule, there is a lot of backlash and us vs them mentalities that basically tell men they're part of the problem no matter what they do. The proponents that are the loudest call for men to work with them while simultaneously blaming them. They leave their hand in it all out of the equation.

    Black people knew they needed white people on their side too to break down racism. Feminists give the impression we'd be better off without them. While that's not true at all, that's the message I frequently hear from men. And I don't find it a logical stretch with the current sensationalist attitude.
    This happens not just with feminists, but with race/LGBT activists as well. Pretty often. One of them will get hostile/impatient and someone's feelings will be hurt. I personally have definitely been afraid that folks in a particular group didn't like me because of one person's meanness, before. But at some point you have to realize that even if one person says they're speaking for everyone, they actually aren't. There's as much difference of opinion within these movements, as outside of them.

    Also, this article covers the "meanness" point pretty nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by the article
    If I wanted to, I could explain to you that 2 + 2 = 4 in the most nasty, condescending, stuck-up, snarky, hateful, vicious way possible. (I’m trying to imagine this now, and it’s funny.) You might never want to interact with me ever again, but that doesn’t mean 2 + 2 suddenly doesn’t equal 4 anymore.

    What would be fair to say is that you’re now upset and not interested in trying to learn about basic arithmetic from me anymore, so while you still haven’t been convinced that 2 + 2 = 4, that doesn’t mean it necessarily doesn’t. You can also say that the emotional response that you’re experiencing is interfering with your ability to think clearly about this subject.
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  4. #324
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    This happens not just with feminists, but with race/LGBT activists as well. Pretty often. One of them will get hostile/impatient and someone's feelings will be hurt. I personally have definitely been afraid that folks in a particular group didn't like me because of one person's meanness, before. But at some point you have to realize that even if one person says they're speaking for everyone, they actually aren't. There's as much difference of opinion within these movements, as outside of them.

    Also, this article covers the "meanness" point pretty nicely.
    While I agree entirely with the sentiment that spokespeople don't represent the whole... the violence suffered by black people cannot quite be compared here. My position is that women and men create rape culture. Slavery wasn't a subtle leaking issue. It was an accepted form and tone for way too long. Black people in America did not invent slavery onto themselves. While there are many similarities, slavery is a complete lack of control in one's life. That is just not the case in America today for both genders.

    The articles main flaw is that I don't need people to believe 2 +2=4 to live safely day to day. It's an absolute concrete thing that's tangible. This issue? Lacks almost all of that. It's ignorant to presume people are forced to believe something that's literally subjective to its core because one group believes it to be absolute. The standards of society are set by society. The only reason rape is wrong is because we deemed it so. It doesn't even exist in nearly all the animal kingdom. We invented it. Even if we say 2+2=5 and the earth is the center of the universe for all eternity it would not make it so. The logics are different. Massively.

    So no, we can't be snarky. Because the cause is to persuade. It is to convince the majority that this standard is superior for all. It's why politics are unavoidable. And even if that's common sense to me. That common sense is subjective and abstract. Being a grumpy math teacher will still create accurate math problems and solutions. Being a grumpy feminist will destroy your own cause.
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  5. #325
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    While I agree entirely with the sentiment that spokespeople don't represent the whole... the violence suffered by black people cannot quite be compared here. My position is that women and men create rape culture. Slavery wasn't a subtle leaking issue. It was an accepted form and tone for way too long. Black people in America did not invent slavery onto themselves. While there are many similarities, slavery is a complete lack of control in one's life. That is just not the case in America today for both genders.
    I was talking about racism, not slavery -- and sometimes non-whites are their own worst enemies. Similar to how sometimes women reinforce sexist stereotypes when communicating with other women. People can begin to believe the stereotypes about themselves. People can absorb bias and start spouting it to their children, their friends, etc. In the cases of minorities, women, and LGBT folks, people both within and outside of the group can take some of the blame, and all parties need to work together to solve that institutional and societal issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The articles main flaw is that I don't need people to believe 2 +2=4 to live safely day to day. It's an absolute concrete thing that's tangible. This issue? Lacks almost all of that. It's ignorant to presume people are forced to believe something that's literally subjective to its core because one group believes it to be absolute. The standards of society are set by society. The only reason rape is wrong is because we deemed it so. It doesn't even exist in nearly all the animal kingdom. We invented it. Even if we say 2+2=5 and the earth is the center of the universe for all eternity it would not make it so. The logics are different. Massively.
    As I understand it, the point of acknowledging the existence of rape culture is not to suddenly and miraculously make you safer. It's to make other people understand those issues better, so they respond better to you when you talk about it. Although there is also the fact, that others in this thread have pointed out, that once men realize the near-constant perceived threat that women are faced with day to day, they will be more active in trying to recognize harassment when they see it, and in trying to get their friends to not behave that way -- if they have friends who behave that way. That may not SOLVE the problem -- but we're not looking for a magical solution here. Or at least I didn't think we were.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    So no, we can't be snarky. Because the cause is to persuade. It is to convince the majority that this standard is superior for all. It's why politics are unavoidable. And even if that's common sense to me. That common sense is subjective and abstract. Being a grumpy math teacher will still create accurate math problems and solutions. Being a grumpy feminist will destroy your own cause.
    I agree. Like I said before, at some point you have to realize that the people who appear to speak for everyone, actually don't speak for everyone. Like angry feminists on the internet. Most feminists are not like that. Most people who support LGBT equality and social justice are not angry. And as the article alluded: Not all atheists are condescending, nor are all Christians "crazy".

    We common folk on this forum don't control the language used in the discussion. Regardless of how much some will disagree with the term "rape culture", we can't successfully fight it, because the term is already in the lexicon -- nationwide and worldwide. What we CAN do is try to be civil with it, explain it, and be good representatives of the position it is describing. I'd like to believe that's what's been happening on this thread.
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  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The difference in tone here is that the general sentiment perceived by men is overwhelmingly that they feel isolated and alienated and hated by feminists no matter what they do. There were plenty of instances where black people welcomed support. And while there are always individual situations to be exceptions to the rule, there is a lot of backlash and us vs them mentalities that basically tell men they're part of the problem no matter what they do. The proponents that are the loudest call for men to work with them while simultaneously blaming them. They leave their hand in it all out of the equation.

    that ^

    fighting against rape itself, ofcourse.
    fighting against sexual assault of all kind, yes.
    encouraging higher reporting rates, definitely.

    but no matter how i turn it in my head, this war against an all encompassing abstract concept of rape culture still seems like the movement to add a "why the new funny feelings you'll experience are the root cause of all social ills that are indirectly raping your mother" companion book to my son's future sex ed class.

  7. #327
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    While I agree entirely with the sentiment that spokespeople don't represent the whole... the violence suffered by black people cannot quite be compared here. My position is that women and men create rape culture. Slavery wasn't a subtle leaking issue. It was an accepted form and tone for way too long. Black people in America did not invent slavery onto themselves. While there are many similarities, slavery is a complete lack of control in one's life. That is just not the case in America today for both genders.

    The articles main flaw is that I don't need people to believe 2 +2=4 to live safely day to day. It's an absolute concrete thing that's tangible. This issue? Lacks almost all of that. It's ignorant to presume people are forced to believe something that's literally subjective to its core because one group believes it to be absolute. The standards of society are set by society. The only reason rape is wrong is because we deemed it so. It doesn't even exist in nearly all the animal kingdom. We invented it. Even if we say 2+2=5 and the earth is the center of the universe for all eternity it would not make it so. The logics are different. Massively.

    So no, we can't be snarky. Because the cause is to persuade. It is to convince the majority that this standard is superior for all. It's why politics are unavoidable. And even if that's common sense to me. That common sense is subjective and abstract. Being a grumpy math teacher will still create accurate math problems and solutions. Being a grumpy feminist will destroy your own cause.
    you kinda do need people to believe 2+2=4 especially if they're handeling your money
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  8. #328
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    As I understand it, the point of acknowledging the existence of rape culture is not to suddenly and miraculously make you safer. It's to make other people understand those issues better, so they respond better to you when you talk about it. Although there is also the fact, that others in this thread have pointed out, that once men realize the near-constant perceived threat that women are faced with day to day, they will be more active in trying to recognize harassment when they see it, and in trying to get their friends to not behave that way -- if they have friends who behave that way. That may not SOLVE the problem -- but we're not looking for a magical solution here. Or at least I didn't think we were.
    The point of it is not to talk about rape but to stop it, and to identify triggers that cause it in the first place. If the point of the anti-rape culture movement is to try to understand rapists/those raped, and to allow women for freedom to talk about being raped, than I have sorely mistaken its intentions. It is to fix the issue that there can be a massive group of men just openly in daylight sexually assaulting women in the middle of Puerto Rican pride parade and not even think twice about their behavior. Not magically, but practically, through active efforts of citizens and conscious changes to attitudes and behavior. You won't fix the world.. but that doesn't mean you can't fix the problem. People still fall through the cracks with food stamps, but things on such a massive scale won't be 100%. I would still venture to say that if you're in America you won't go hungry. If you know where to look and are patient/persistent enough you WILL get food here. That wasn't the case not so long ago.

    My two cents on it is that you won't make men see it by putting them on the defense. Just like if you start out something with "no offense" there's usually offense coming. When you immediately start out telling some awkward young guy that what he's doing is indirectly causing rape, he's going to shut down on you, not look within himself.

    We can't invalidate the feelings of men just because there are important topics at hand because they're part of the solution. A huge, massive, important part of it. Saying, "Oh you should just accept what we're saying because WE KNOW BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONES GETTING RAPED so if I say your stupid music video is causing rape, you'd better stop watching it!" Being snarky and moral high horsed, even with plenty of evidence, isn't going to get anyone anywhere. The article is garbage, despite its good intentions. If you call an uneducated person an idiot for not knowing 2+2=4 when they've never had an opportunity to go to school you aren't really helping sell education--you're hurting it by abusing your knowledge and letting that power corrupt you into thinking you can stop treating human beings like humans for the sake of being 'right'. And society breaks down its fastest when we stop treating people as equals.

    I agree. Like I said before, at some point you have to realize that the people who appear to speak for everyone, actually don't speak for everyone. Like angry feminists on the internet. Most feminists are not like that. Most people who support LGBT equality and social justice are not angry. And as the article alluded: Not all atheists are condescending, nor are all Christians "crazy".
    I know many feminists that would not identify with the label because of the sensationalist attitude that it's become, politically and socially. I certainly qualify as the typical feminist, but the label feels wrong because of the attitudes associated with it.

    It is completely valid to say that the ideas behind a movement are great even if EVERYONE backing it were total idiot scumbags that had it all wrong.

    However, I feel it is also valid to say that great ideas have drown in history time and time again because of bad publicity. And I think feminism is massively failing at reaching out to men, because that's the general consensus and feedback I get from men. I don't know many men that identify as feminist. In fact, an overwhelming majority would not--despite the fact that they would agree with most or all of its ideologies and core concepts. That, to me, speaks volumes.

    We common folk on this forum don't control the language used in the discussion. Regardless of how much some will disagree with the term "rape culture", we can't successfully fight it, because the term is already in the lexicon -- nationwide and worldwide. What we CAN do is try to be civil with it, explain it, and be good representatives of the position it is describing. I'd like to believe that's what's been happening on this thread.
    I think overall the thread is civil enough and done well enough. It would be nice for people that came up with this to give it a less alienating name. I still say rape culture, because there is a lack of another term just as established now that effectively communicates. I just think all the back pedaling needing to be done to explain that it has more than rape involved in it really set the whole thing up for failure. They could have called it anything else really.. "New sexual liberation movement".

    I like the concept of the Yes means Yes movement that's recently emerged in the media. It's simple, concise, to the point, and it doesn't accuse anyone of anything. It allows stupid rap music videos, and BDSM communities, and party clubbers to all go on about their business without anyone being implicated for rape in the process. Men and women can get behind it, and many follow those principles subconsciously already.

    I feel like this movement was born, in part, because of the ineptitude and short comings of the anti-rape culture movement, even though it falls under the same window.

    Personally, I think an anti-by-stander-effect movement and psychological-education movement would get much more done on all fronts, not just rape.
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  9. #329
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    We common folk on this forum don't control the language used in the discussion. Regardless of how much some will disagree with the term "rape culture", we can't successfully fight it, because the term is already in the lexicon -- nationwide and worldwide. What we CAN do is try to be civil with it, explain it, and be good representatives of the position it is describing. I'd like to believe that's what's been happening on this thread.
    I can appreciate this here and now mentality, let's move forward etc. When addressing these types of societal ills you are going to have a difference of opinion as to how to go about actually effecting real change. You will have those that ask/are concerned about how rapists are "made" and other core issues. There will be others who want to focus on real time prevention and enforcement, etc. The way I look at that is, it's all good. With that said I consider myself one off the former types of people when I decide to spend my time/effort/money on an issue.

    Come @EJCC, let us reason together. (skip to :38 of video)




    I would say the term rape culture isn't a part of the lexicon, yet. Mostly it's feminists, some females, a guy or two (hehe, 17 actually, I jest of course), college "age" students and those interested in the subject of rape or related subjects, i.e. incarceration rates, crime & punishment etc. This is my subjective experience on the matter but I'd invite you to ask people at work/school etc. and do a survey of who knows about the term. The older the person, the less likely they are going to be familiar with it would be my prediction.

    Here is a definition of Rape Culture that I believe most proponents would agree on.

    Rape Culture; is an environment in which rape is highly prevalent, normalized and excused by the society’s media, popular culture, and political figures. Rape culture is perpetuated through the use of misogynistic language, the objectification or women’s bodies, and the glamorization of sexual violence, which creates a social culture that disregards women’s rights and their safety.

    Therein lies my interest and the reason for this post. I'd like to see this term done away with or REFORMULATED and updated to reflect "reality". Failing that, pushed back into the corner within the feminist movement from which it spawned and out of mainstream feminism. I'm not alone in this and you don't have to be male to have such an interest and perspective. Robin Thicke (female, for those that care) of Time Magazine writes: RAINN, the Anti-Sexual-Violence Organization, Rejects ‘Rape Culture’ Hysteria - TIME

    Briefly, RAINN’s (America’s largest and most influential anti-sexual-violence organization. It’s the leading voice for sexual-assault victim advocacy Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) recent recommendations to the White House Task Force to Protect Students from Sexual Assault, it repudiates the rhetoric of the anti–”rape culture” movement: here's what had to say on the subject, in a letter to the President

    "In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campus. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important not to lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime."

    In the same letter RAINN goes on to write:

    ...that the trend of focusing on rape culture “has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.”

    I can just see it now, the Rape Culture Legal Defense for an accused rapist: See, I'm male (obviously) your Honor and I was raised to objectify women and viewed a lot of sexual violence growing up. I admit I played way too many video games like GTA 5, and watched way too many movies. Never mind that other cultures consume this same media and have lower crime/rape rates... I was made to be this way by my culture!

    How an issue is framed, is important. Framing (social sciences) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I'll admit that I'm also a little anal (inappropriate & potentially sexual term intended) about the use of the word "culture" but I see how framing the crime of rape and turning it into a male vs. female (only) issue can poison the minds of women and lead to hostile environments for males. It's this culture of fear and the politics of fear that I really dislike. Stop trying to manipulate my emotions! Perhaps this is type related, but I'm sensitive/perceptive to when someone is trying to use negative emotional influence on me.

    All you have to do is look at rape stats, all rape stats, to know that a large portion of the conversation is being overlooked/ignored and that rape culture, as presented, is intellectually false. There are also real and practical/tangible effects by framing rape in this manner. Just look at the outlay of government tax dollars. Imagine for a moment that you are a male and one day you are raped. Who are you going to talk to? Is there a government agency that can help you deal with the aftermath, are there trained professionals? The same can not be said for a female. It is this inequity (equal rights, right? ) that makes the continuation of the verbiage and concept unappealing and unacceptable to me, lest it truly become a part of the American Lexicon.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #330
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    that ^

    fighting against rape itself, ofcourse.
    fighting against sexual assault of all kind, yes.
    encouraging higher reporting rates, definitely.

    but no matter how i turn it in my head, this war against an all encompassing abstract concept of rape culture still seems like the movement to add a "why the new funny feelings you'll experience are the root cause of all social ills that are indirectly raping your mother" companion book to my son's future sex ed class.
    It's unfortunate. Women are telling men their fears are being invalidated and written off as paranoia and nonsense, and then turning right around and saying men's fears of being accused and bound and stuck between a rock and a hard place are nonsense. Validation is key here.. Men have to know that the anti-rape culture movement is about giving their sons a safe, comfortable place to live and thrive--of having free access to important knowledge to keep him from doing something stupid like not reporting a sexual assault M2M (Gods Forbid..) just because people tried to ignore an issue instead of bringing it to light.

    Instead, the communication barriers are already walled up from the title alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    you kinda do need people to believe 2+2=4 especially if they're handeling your money
    I would like them to know.. but I don't think it's in the cards for everyone in the world to know.
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