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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
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    18 27.69%
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  1. #281
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    here looked one up for you. i saw it on the news and haven't read this but it's the same case.

    Man Found Guilty of Drugging and Raping Wife Gets No Prison Time | Mediaite
    Thanks pretty lady.


    Jaysus Chreeestos. That's some fucked up repugnant shit.

    But in defense of the husband, his wife was, as he put it, being "snippy."

    Funny comment at bottom:

    "This should be appealed. And the judge fired. Possibly out of a cannon."

    Oooooooorrr, maybe just castrate the husband and the judge. That's just me though.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

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  2. #282
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    Thanks pretty lady.


    Jaysus Chreeestos. That's some fucked up repugnant shit.

    But in defense of the husband, his wife was, as he put it, being "snippy."

    Funny comment at bottom:

    "This should be appealed. And the judge fired. Possibly out of a cannon."

    Oooooooorrr, maybe just castrate the husband and the judge. That's just me though.
    i know! house arrest?? dude can drive to his work and home just like most people.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  3. #283
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    And, frankly, "INTJ" or any other type label could brim with baggage too. Have you seen the INTJ-ENFP Fetishes thread? It would change your life.
    Exactly. All the types have baggage that fuels stereotypes and the parlor game versions of MBTI. You have to look beyond the labels if you truly want to understand. Same with rape culture, feminism, political correctness, or many other concepts. Labels are simply a shorthand, which all too easily lead to misunderstandings when everyone is not in agreement with exactly what they refer to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    right now, there are men who view themselves as entitled to sex because they react with gender-wide resentment for sexual rejection.
    replace "sexual rejection" with "lineage holocaust" - the complete preemptive mass murder of the potential offspring' that never came to be...

    you honestly think it would make no difference to the dialogue?
    Both terms are possible motivations for a man to exhibit the behavior described. Both cases are thus subsets of the greater whole of "male attitudes of entitlement to sex". Neither negates the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    mind you, this isn't a unique tactics:
    the other side is pro baby death / the other side is against women's choices
    the other wants to let terrorists run free / the other side wants to take your freedom
    the other side wants to sacrifice our security / the side is pure warmongering
    ...likewise with this: the other side is promoting rape culture.
    These tactics work only when people focus on the label rather than the content. Unfortunately far too many people do this, resulting in considerable heat and little light. I suppose I could call this "superficiality culture". Someone really wanting to understand will not leap on the label and make assumptions, but will instead ask: "what do you mean by rape culture, or feminism, or pro-life, or warmongering, or . . . " Only then can you have any confidence that you are discussing the same thing. Put another way, using the label gets you in the ballpark, and serves as a shorthand once everyone is clear on the topic under discussion. Asking and clarifying gets you onto that same page within the ballpark (sorry for mixed metaphor).

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    The point why it is called "rape culture" though is exactly because there is a connection. The person who makes lewed jokes about a co-worker shares a basic attitute with the guy who drags a girl behind a bush holding a knife to her throat. It is not the same thing and the first person is no rapist, but there is an underlying worldview/philosophy that is the basic problem.
    Yes. The commonality is an acceptance of a double standard for men vs. women. On a relatively mild level, this results in lewd jokes, or assuming that the only woman in the office will be the one to make coffee every morning. At the harmful extreme is violent assault like rape and domestic abuse. When the first is prevalent, it sets up an environment in which people feel comfortable to commit the second.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The topic of the thread is "Do you believe that rape culture exists?" Thus it posits that it possibly doesn't exist and questions what exactly it is. If the topic of the thread were "How should we address rape culture?" then the meat and potatoes of rape culture would be of concern.
    You seem to want to discuss "is 'rape culture' a good name for this cluster of phenomena?" That is a fair question, and I would indeed want to know exactly what I am being asked about the existence of. The OP provided a definition pages ago, however, so you should be able to formulate an opinion. Objecting to the term he used for it is fair game too, but a separate and rather narrow issue compared with its basic existence, or how to address it.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Perhaps I can explain why "rape" isn't the way to communicate that terror:
    • When a woman hears "rape", she feels fear.
    • When a man hears "rape", he hears an accusation.
    You are overgeneralizing, and ignoring the ability of reasonable folks to look beyond imperfect labels to discuss the real issue presented.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    "Culture of fear" maybe, emphasizing the fear that women have to live with every day? From my reading, and my own experience, I find that explaining that fear inspires the "You have to put up with THAT?! Every day?!" response, along with possible comments along the lines of, "I'm gonna have a word or two with my buds on how they talk with you or about you." Take advantage of the natural protective instincts of men towards women!
    Oh good grief - more of the double standard. How about just encouraging friends to help friends, and bystanders to help strangers, without more gender assumptions?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I agree that the ball shouldn't always be in womens' courts to educate or prevent inappropriate or bad things from happening. At the same time, I believe that by drawing boundaries sooner than later, and being more direct than usual discourse would suggest is polite when someone tests the waters in verbally or physically suggestive and socially inappropriate (though not overtly dangerous) ways (and teaching the males close to us to do the same, not only in defense of a specific female, but when that kind of talk comes up in male only company generally), it creates awareness and sets a standard and will have a societal impact. We do teach people how to treat us, and I think it is very important to clearly and directly state when other people have crossed a line and to not allow it to remain a private thing that can gather momentum or allow the other person to think you are cool with it. More often than not, the message is being clearly sent (which is a sexual one), yet it is delivered privately and is not overt enough that the receiver is sure enough of themselves to make a big deal of it and it allows wiggle room for the perpetrator to deny that that was what they meant at all. This is one reason why it is important to have scripted yourself before in a variety of situations about what you could say or do that brings those behaviours into the open and which make it clear that they will not be tolerated. Otherwise, it is easy to freeze, second guess oneself, or follow the path of least resistance, which is not kind or fair to any of the people involved (including the perpetrator or their future targets).
    This cannot be emphasized enough. It presupposes, though, that women understand their own boundaries and are willing to enforce them, even if it makes them appear less than polite and accommodating. We cannot expect men (or other women) to observe our boundaries when we don't observe them ourselves, or point them out to the intrusive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Honestly, I've done the 'educating' part when I felt it was relatively safe and potentially productive to do so, and hey, it was rewarding - the first 15 times. After that, it kind of felt like 'why am I parenting these people?' and 'Can I get paid for the overtime I'm putting in please?'
    I don't see it so much as educating them as protecting my boundaries and moving on. I want the guy to leave me alone. Perhaps he will just move on and pester someone else. But if she tells him off, and the next one does and the next one, too, eventually he will learn; maybe not that it is fundamentally wrong, even, but simply that he is not going to get away with continuing to behave like that in the present environment/setting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Equally, women feel they are entitled to attention from men without any reciprocation. Men are upset when we give women time and effort and get nothing back in return. It is not selfish to expect reciprocity.

    Women can't know what it is like to have to go up and talk to complete strangers who, additionally, you are sexually attracted to (so you're thinking about that at the same time), and have all this pressure, and get turned down time after time. Next time you talk about male privilege, think about that.
    Overgeneralizations and missing the point. Any sense of entitlement on the part of women does not lead to violence against men nearly as much as men's sense of entitlement leads to violence against women (and sometimes other men). Also, in this day and age, more and more women do know what it feels like to engage strangers whom they find attractive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    If you drink and drive at night, don't concentrate, hit a blind corner and spin off the road, then nobody would blame the corner, but your lack of concentration and the reasons for it.

    Likewise, if you put yourself in a dangerous situation, like go to a strange party and take drugs, and drink even though you know you are at exponentially increased risk of being raped, and then turn around and claim no responsibility the next day, I am not impressed. Sure you got taken advantage of but you knew the risks, didn't have to be in the place you were but chose to be anyway. It is completely different to being randomly grabbed in the street or attacked in your own home. Just like back to the car situtaion, it isn't your fault if another reckless driver bangs into you and you don't have time to pull out.
    This comparison is invalid. Blind corners and other immovable features of our roadways are insentient and incapable of intentions. Put otherwise, some dangers are much more within our control than others and should be removed. Women should no more have to navigate a world of predatory men than the average driver should have to navigate a neighborhood strewn with caltrops.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    That's true, I didn't communicate offense. I reacted defensively instead of offensively in that moment. And what I hear you saying is that in doing so, I have betrayed the cause of helping women educate men to be better men. Is that right?
    How likely do you think it is that this fellow will approach you again sometime?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #284
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Equally, women feel they are entitled to attention from men without any reciprocation. Men are upset when we give women time and effort and get nothing back in return. It is not selfish to expect reciprocity.
    It's selfish to ever expect anything from anyone.

    If a man doesn't get reciprocation from women, does he deserve to get his genes into the next generation? This is sexual selection at work. If you are being selected against, accept your fate.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #285
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    That's true, I didn't communicate offense. I reacted defensively instead of offensively in that moment. And what I hear you saying is that in doing so, I have betrayed the cause of helping women educate men to be better men. Is that right?
    Not at all what I am trying to say. Not now, nor ever. It is NOT an us vs them thing. That includes women activists vs non-activists. I am not an activist.. and like I said before, I frequently deflect just like you do.

    This is a thread on a global issue, and my stance on it was that (aside from rape culture being a misnomer) women and men are both part of a culture. Your story gave me a perfect example to use, on how something small can potentially blossom into either contributing to the things that are associated with this rape culture mentality, or rebel against the culture establishment with a simple gesture. I was still in my mindset of my posts on the thread prior to your contribution, and I did not take into consideration that you were jumping into the thread later on.

    And I jumped the gun far too fast on it, and I absolutely did not take your feelings into consideration. My intentions were not to say, "all women should do x or y." I was saying things that I used to defend myself against men that absolutely did mean me harm, and to encourage a mentality of being a hard target vs a soft target. It was not meant to invalidate, or to call you a failure. You are NOT a failure in what you did, and I actually commend your security precautions you took. They were stellar. The only failure here right now is me, for lacking (ironically enough) the communication skills I was just talking about. I don't always know how to say what I am saying with sensitivity.. I know that. It is a frequent flaw of mine. I try to make things cold and calculated, and insert myself in there, to show that I empathize.. but despite having empathy, showing it is difficult for me.

    I'm sorry you felt shamed. I want you to post here and in other threads. I was talking to you because I felt comfortable around you... I do wish, however, you would have told me in PM your anger. I didn't want to start a big thing in here, I PMed you to attempt to reach out and get you to .. I dunno.. Yell at me, or throw things at me, or tell me I'm a big blockheaded jerk. And I felt a little betrayed that you were so sweet to me in PM, and I felt things were resolved and you knew I was apologizing, and later on you've changed your stance back to anger.

    So, I'll bring it public. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've posted in this forum a hundred times before how I dislike the stupid simple things men do, in threads just like this one. I don't appreciate it, and I frequently don't do anything about it anyways. I was speaking on a global issue based on your story--it was not meant to imprint you into that scenario, but my flippant ways of talking did not make anything I wanted to say clear.

    Yet instead of speaking to me with some sensitivity for my failure, you shame me by saying, if I spoke up, was more like you this wouldn't happen and furthermore, the world would be a better place.
    You don't want to be like me. I didn't say this wouldn't happen.. my point wasn't to say it wouldn't happen. I tried to validate your fears by saying they are likely. They just weren't the most likely based on the information you gave. You did not fail. But I felt your story lent to my stance in the thread.

    Am I pissed you are pinning all of this on me? Yes. You make me regret speaking here at all.
    The only one that shouldn't be speaking here anymore is me. Which will happen now. I'm very sorry.
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  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Not sure if I understand this post correctly. It only seems to make sense if what you mean is that "both genders should be treated with the same respect" and "both genders have the same inherent worth" are positions that are up for debate. I doubt that that's what you mean, but it's the only way I can see right now that this post would make sense.
    no, though the only way for you to reach that conclusion would be to follow the exact same error i just described above... again: presumably you somehow link your beliefs with that position so blindly that you immediately interpreted the the claim your beliefs can and should be questioned and open for debate as meaning that your base position of both genders having equal worth should be open to debate. this is still interpreting within your belief system - the rabbi interpreting the indo the atheist and the christian as hateful of god because they eat shrimps since he can't fathom how the two wouldn't be related.

    if you want to understand what i am saying, detach from the assumptions there: i don't see the same connections you seem to be taking for granted to began with, in fact my doubts about the concept of rape culture are based on the fears that this ordeal contradicts with those very principles - as i expressed already - on the surface it looks like an attempt to vilify an entire gender and bestow moral superiority on the other, which is far from supporting the notion of equal worth among genders - quite the opposite. if i was to make the same error, i could have easily jump to the assumption that your working within the same framework as mine and thus assume the same connection and are thus already debating the notion of equal worth to began with (ofcourse you aren't, but you get my point).

  7. #287
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    no, though you the only way for you to reach that conclusion would be to follow the exact same error i just described above... again: presumably you somehow link your beliefs with that position so blindly that you immediately interpreted the the claim your beliefs can and should be questioned and open for debate as meaning that your base position of both genders having inherit worth should be open to debate. this is still interpreting within your belief system - the rabbi interpreting the indo the atheist and the christian as hateful of god because they eat shrimps since he can't fathom how the two wouldn't be related.

    if you want to understand what i am saying, detach from the assumptions there: i don't see the same connections you seem to be taking for granted to began with, in fact my doubts about the concept of rape culture are based on the fears that this ordeal contradicts with those very principles - as i expressed already - on the surface it looks like an attempt to vilify an entire gender and bestow moral superiority on the other, which is far from supporting the notion of equal worth among genders - quite the opposite. if i was to make the same error, i could have easily jump to the assumption that your working within the same framework as mine and thus assume the same connection and are thus already debating the notion of equal worth to began with (ofcourse you aren't, but you get my point).
    Yes, I take it for granted that tha actions of individuals are almost always also a part of something bigger, social trends, attitudes, zeitgeist, etc. That is a basic assumption of the half of mankind that identifies with the left. The right half of it tends to prefer Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society" and stresses individual responsibility (a good thing in itelf) at the price of big picture analysis.
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  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Yes, I take it for granted that tha actions of individuals are almost always also a part of something bigger, social trends, attitudes, zeitgeist, etc. That is a basic assumption of the half of mankind that identifies with the left. The right half of it tends to prefer Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society" and stresses individual responsibility (a good thing in itelf) at the price of big picture analysis.
    Yes, our environment is invisible, until we stand outside in another environment.

    And we all respond to our environment to survive and thrive.

    So we respond to our environment without knowing what it is.

  9. #289
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    This is a thread on a global issue, and my stance on it was that (aside from rape culture being a misnomer) women and men are both part of a culture. Your story gave me a perfect example to use, on how something small can potentially blossom into either contributing to the things that are associated with this rape culture mentality, or rebel against the culture establishment with a simple gesture. I was still in my mindset of my posts on the thread prior to your contribution, and I did not take into consideration that you were jumping into the thread later on.
    Thanks for explaining. I appreciate it.

    I'm sorry you felt shamed. I want you to post here and in other threads. I was talking to you because I felt comfortable around you... I do wish, however, you would have told me in PM your anger. I didn't want to start a big thing in here, I PMed you to attempt to reach out and get you to .. I dunno.. Yell at me, or throw things at me, or tell me I'm a big blockheaded jerk. And I felt a little betrayed that you were so sweet to me in PM, and I felt things were resolved and you knew I was apologizing, and later on you've changed your stance back to anger.
    Thanks for this ... I pm'd after this post to soften it for you, I know you don't mean to hurt me ... yet I am a soft person, a passive person and a very patient one. Yet for all of my calm demeanor, I do have very real and intense feelings. I sometimes feel it doesn't help me eh, that people sometimes think I will be so accommodating and understanding that they can basically say anything and I'll handle the emotional fallout the way I usually do, silently, on my own? (I'm just generalizing, not trying to pin that on you either. That's my baggage. kk?)

    I'm not angry with you - being angry is different than being angry with you. I think you do make valid points, and they are appreciated and they were important to be shared. I didn't expect to be made an example of though, so it really stung, yet in that you've illustrated some additional points to me that I'm definitely reflecting on.

    The only one that shouldn't be speaking here anymore is me. Which will happen now. I'm very sorry.
    No, not true. You better keep your butt in this thread, or I will be upset with you! I'm proud of you for speaking so passionately about how you feel on this issue.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Yes, I take it for granted that tha actions of individuals are almost always also a part of something bigger, social trends, attitudes, zeitgeist, etc.
    that alone doesn't support in which ways they are (as i explained, the concept seem to be part of something bigger which outright contradicts the value of equal worth - either interpretation view's the concept under big picture analysis).

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Someone really wanting to understand will not leap on the label and make assumptions, but will instead ask:
    as i have. and i'm quite happy with the responses - parameters i agree on (speech should be free to be said but not free from cultural judgement, innocent until proven guilty should be maintained for rape and sexual assault cases just like any other crime, equal responsibility, etc). then again, i also saw the links to a page attempting to define and cluster what examples can be included within it and i somehow doubt the authors of those would agree to the above parameters. i don't know which to go by.

    i am not as inclined to dismiss superficiality culture as you are - lacking telepathic connection with a universal database server we all agreed on, people will tend to attach what they mean based on the label (while trying to continue the patterns within what is already attached to it), expend on it and detract from the concept based on what the label conveys for them - labels have a lot of power on the evolution of concepts. this goes not only to how men would react to the concept of rape culture but also to what experiences women will associate with it.

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