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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #261
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    To me that seems kind of emblematic of the exact thing many of us are kind of up in arms about, if on a pretty small scale- someone makes an inappropriate remark that belies an absolute vacuum where an awareness of what uninvited contact like that feels like to the other person should be, and people respond with "well, why didn't you say something?"

  2. #262
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Honestly, I've done the 'educating' part when I felt it was relatively safe and potentially productive to do so, and hey, it was rewarding - the first 15 times. After that, it kind of felt like 'why am I parenting these people?' and 'Can I get paid for the overtime I'm putting in please?'

    Honestly, the amount of time you waste navigating this stuff, worrying about this stuff, taking precautions and actually arguing against people who consider this normal behaviour kind of makes you wonder what else you could've done that would've actually contributed to your life instead. And this is coming from someone who actually enjoys helping people see their potential if she can and getting to know people intimately.

    While this re-education is definitely necessary, it's problematic at best irl - and a man at 60 is likely not going to be open to being 'parented' on something he considers apparently normal since most people are kind of done and set in their ways by then. And I honestly think that a public awareness campaign where we pull together - men and women, is likely to be way more effective than me taking the chance and escalating each and every encounter in the futile attempt to convince someone that what they're doing is in fact violating my boundaries. It makes them defensive (and most don't really listen to women anyways - they are more susceptible to it from a man), potentially angry and honestly is a waste of my time 90 percent of the time.
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  3. #263
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    I think things can be harder if there's not a man in the house.
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  4. #264
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Nice.

    Maybe you are right, and if you're that quick in the moment, good for you. I'm not.
    Many are not. I am not sometimes too. It's something you have to think about and practice in advance. Like the way people practice any skill they aren't adept in.

    Yet I also feel angry with you for shaming me here for my choice to deflect. Each choice has pros and cons and you're suggesting that your statement would set an appropriate boundary, when in reality, it could just as likely set a future target on me to "put me in my place".
    Very true, it might. But is that the most likely scenario? The hard facts are he made grossly inappropriate jokes towards you and you didn't communicate your offense at all. I think 14 year olds ought to know better than to cuss around little kids, but I don't hesitate to call them out when they fail to meet my personal expectations.

    I'm not saying to be stupid.. if you feel in danger, don't create more hostile intentions and environments. But he lives near you. Chances are he's not looking for awkwardness with his neighbor. Lots of guys test the waters in all the wrong ways. Inappropriate gestures don't immediately signal danger though.

    Had he tried to put you in your place, would it have worked? Likely not. I don't think you'd have felt like you were in the wrong even if he did yell at you in anger. But he definitely doesn't know he offended you.

    My post was intended to reflect the irony of my mental ponderings and then be immediately faced with the real-life issues that we face every day. Instead I feel like you're blaming me for what happened, instead of me not having to worry about being talked to suggestively while walking my dog in the first place.
    I'd like to fight for that day too. But African Americans didn't get there by deflecting. Our actions as women matter.

    I'm not saying any of this to blame you. You're not wrong. I'm pointing out that active effort is important. You don't get that kind of freedom by expecting men to read your subtle hints. You do it by taking back your personal space and bubble. It isn't an us vs them thing. You have to trust that fair, but honest and well said communication will not only fairly communicate with your neighbor, but will maybe create a better working relationship between you two instead of the one sided awkward resentment that will eventually blossom from you. And he'll long forget that joke before you do.

    You're not wrong in your philosophy that the matter is global and education is required. I'm saying that we, as women, have to be the teachers because no one understands better than we do. I'm saying your daily decisions and actions could help create the very thing you want by just temporarily tapping outside the comfort zone of avoiding any potential conflict.

    You're already assuming he'll be uncivil and violent before you give him a chance. I've worked with primarily men my whole life. A bit of calm collected honesty goes a long way. Despite the stereotypes, I rarely meet truly violent men.. and rarer still men that would attack me with anything other than words. I can't live in a fearful bubble waiting anxiously for something to happen.

    I'm saying we ought to look inside of ourselves and see if we're really doing things to the best of our abilities. If there's nothing we could do to help fix a scenario instead of frowning about it.

    He was in the wrong. No doubt about that. You didn't do anything to invite his behavior. I don't blame you for not wanting to deal with it.. that time or ever. I do the same sometimes. I am saying though... it's hard for me to complain about those times when I didn't even try either. It's the times I pushed back I feel comfortable talking about.

    Rape culture is real. But we're all a part of it. If you're in a group that calls a black man a racial slur, that guy doesn't know you don't agree with them when you say nothing. If rape culture exists it is because we are living it too. Men didn't create all of this on their own despite valiant efforts of women. It's a human problem that spans beyond culture and location and age.
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  5. #265
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Honestly, I've done the 'educating' part when I felt it was relatively safe and potentially productive to do so, and hey, it was rewarding - the first 15 times. After that, it kind of felt like 'why am I parenting these people?' and 'Can I get paid for the overtime I'm putting in please?'

    Honestly, the amount of time you waste navigating this stuff, worrying about this stuff, taking precautions and actually arguing against people who consider this normal behaviour kind of makes you wonder what else you could've done that would've actually contributed to your life instead. And this is coming from someone who actually enjoys helping people see their potential if she can and getting to know people intimately.

    While this re-education is definitely necessary, it's problematic at best irl - and a man at 60 is likely not going to be open to being 'parented' on something he considers apparently normal since most people are kind of done and set in their ways by then. And I honestly think that a public awareness campaign where we pull together - men and women, is likely to be way more effective than me taking the chance and escalating each and every encounter in the futile attempt to convince someone that what they're doing is in fact violating my boundaries. It makes them defensive (and most don't really listen to women anyways - they are more susceptible to it from a man), potentially angry and honestly is a waste of my time 90 percent of the time.
    yes take integration of schools in the south during civil rights. all the riots ect because of it during that period. My dad was in 1945 and grew up in small town in KY when he was in 4th grade they integrated his school. Luckily no riots broke out but his class mates probably never been around a african american so the teacher prepared them for this. (I don't know if my dad had or hadn't as my grandpa was really good friends with minister at the black church in town). But viewing african american's as second class citizens was normalized and people didn't really think what they were doing was wrong. it's been what 70 or so years and theres still that attitude in some places but it's not as widespread. I'm not saying racism no longer exists, it does. and We can try to change people's attitudes but things like that don't just happen
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #266
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    yes take integration of schools in the south during civil rights. all the riots ect because of it during that period. My dad was in 1945 and grew up in small town in KY when he was in 4th grade they integrated his school. Luckily no riots broke out but his class mates probably never been around a african american so the teacher prepared them for this. (I don't know if my dad had or hadn't as my grandpa was really good friends with minister at the black church in town). But viewing african american's as second class citizens was normalized and people didn't really think what they were doing was wrong. it's been what 70 or so years and theres still that attitude in some places but it's not as widespread. I'm not saying racism no longer exists, it does. and We can try to change people's attitudes but things like that don't just happen

    And it needs to be addressed at this level - at the core. Otherwise it just gets dismissed as 'whining' from certain people. Kudos to the teacher prepping them for this, for that matter. And yes, even to this day, racism continues to be a problem - but at least the institutionalised version of it has been addressed, though I'm sure that as a white person, I am not aware of the subtle ways this stuff still continues in our society and needs further recognition.


    And then there is the additional issue of integration and immigration - I dunno how prevalent this is in the US, but I know that most of the men who harassed me in the street were foreigners from cultures where women were...well, considered property, pretty much. People who believed that euro girls were whores for them to practise on until they imported their very own virgin from the homeland - starting the integration process all over again. While Belgian guys harass you as well in clubs when they were intoxicated (so it's not just a foreigner issue), this presents a real problem in addressing the issue as the stream of immigrants is ongoing - meaning that the re-educating never ends.
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  7. #267
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    We can try to change people's attitudes but things like that don't just happen
    Nope. They took collective active effort from both sides to get it where it is now. @Amargith you can't put a price on feeling safe and leaving a place nicer than when you got there.
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  8. #268
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Nope. They took collective active effort from both sides to get it where it is now. @Amargith you can't put a price on feeling safe and leaving a place nicer than when you got there.

    Perhaps not. But when I'm forced to re-educate and evaluate men for high risk management an average of 3 times a day, with minimal reward and likelihood to succeed - success that can only be achieved through long-ass debate, Im going to say: 'Sorry, it aint my job to explain to you *why* my 'No' should be sufficient.' And I'm going to walk away. I've tried it for about 1-2 years - I always gave the guy who approached me the benefit of the doubt, was gentle in rebuffing them only to have my no ignored 10 times and my appeal to their common sense ignored in favour for yet another plea to get my phone number, a marriage proposal or an attempt to get my address. I will admit that I've had some amazing convos with eastern european guys in Russian about the rights of a female, why she should or should not marry and why babies are a must in their culture. It was fascinating - but in the end, the cost benefit analysis, it seriously was not worth the harassment - as much as I enjoyed those few convos.

    ....I invested on average 15-20 minutes in each guy I met, when I could - and escaped when I needed to make it to an appointment. That is 45 minutes a day.

    I'm sorry, i've done my part. And the worst part is - I honestly did not see it having any kind of effect in 90 percent of the cases, so WHY am I bothering?

    There honestly has to be a more effective approach than this.
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  9. #269
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Talky talky talky, so much talky. Talky can be good, but whatcha gonna do about it, punk?
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  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    right now, there are men who view themselves as entitled to sex because they react with gender-wide resentment for sexual rejection.
    replace "sexual rejection" with "lineage holocaust" - the complete preemptive mass murder of the potential offspring' that never came to be...
    Equally, women feel they are entitled to attention from men without any reciprocation. Men are upset when we give women time and effort and get nothing back in return. It is not selfish to expect reciprocity.

    Women can't know what it is like to have to go up and talk to complete strangers who, additionally, you are sexually attracted to (so you're thinking about that at the same time), and have all this pressure, and get turned down time after time. Next time you talk about male privilege, think about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    framing such as those are an effective social strategy used when you want to isolate a side of the debate from any opposition on the ideology presented, and they work: so far, @Red Herring has provided parameters i can easily agree on as a problem, and i would bet most other men could too. but there was a reason i asked - i would never have guessed that the concept of rape culture could fit within those, and from previous discussions with other guys i can honestly say the prevailing sentiment before asking those questions (largely supported by @EJCC's links) is that the entire concept frames all men as representative of rape culture and all women as it's victims (also - the "some of my best friends are men" responses do not help the case).
    If you drink and drive at night, don't concentrate, hit a blind corner and spin off the road, then nobody would blame the corner, but your lack of concentration and the reasons for it.

    Likewise, if you put yourself in a dangerous situation, like go to a strange party and take drugs, and drink even though you know you are at exponentially increased risk of being raped, and then turn around and claim no responsibility the next day, I am not impressed. Sure you got taken advantage of but you knew the risks, didn't have to be in the place you were but chose to be anyway. It is completely different to being randomly grabbed in the street or attacked in your own home. Just like back to the car situtaion, it isn't your fault if another reckless driver bangs into you and you don't have time to pull out.

    Context is everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    last but not least... is anyone who has actually being raped enjoying this framework? people lumping together everything from sexist remarks to being groped at a bar or even sexual fetishes with... rape? it's like you've had people who came to your house stole everything you owned and used details on your paperwork to empty your bank account.... and then i'd come and tell you that "i totally know what it feels to have your sense of trust and security violated and have people feeling entitled for your possessions because i gave someone a 20 and they never gave it back!".personally i hate that sort of shit, i've had people compare the lose of access to my son with them loosing their dog. it's the sort of pathetic and ignorant attempt to empathize that just ends up putting the burden of understanding on the people your trying to empathize with.
    Define sexist remarks, really, I want to know what you consider to be sexist. I don't know anyone who has made a rape joke or thinks it is funny to talk about, any more than they would joke about murder or robbery.

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