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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
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  1. #251
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    @uumlau Since you appear* to agree that rape culture exists (without wanting to call it that), and since you appear* to understand it, what would you suggest it be called, to maximize emotional impact for men?

    *I think your Ni+9 detachment is confusing a few people on this thread regarding these points
    That's actually a good question.

    "Culture of fear" maybe, emphasizing the fear that women have to live with every day? From my reading, and my own experience, I find that explaining that fear inspires the "You have to put up with THAT?! Every day?!" response, along with possible comments along the lines of, "I'm gonna have a word or two with my buds on how they talk with you or about you." Take advantage of the natural protective instincts of men towards women!

    And you're prolly right on my Ni+9. I'm shifting gears in a few different ways, trying to synthesize perspectives. Thank you for prompting me with this question, it really helped solidify a few things in my mind.
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  2. #252
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Completely agree with @Amargith. Great post.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    That's actually a good question.

    "Culture of fear" maybe, emphasizing the fear that women have to live with every day? From my reading, and my own experience, I find that explaining that fear inspires the "You have to put up with THAT?! Every day?!" response, along with possible comments along the lines of, "I'm gonna have a word or two with my buds on how they talk with you or about you." Take advantage of the natural protective instincts of men towards women!
    I'd love that idea, except that it's already taken -- relating to the idea of "fear-mongering" in US politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    And you're prolly right on my Ni+9. I'm shifting gears in a few different ways, trying to synthesize perspectives. Thank you for prompting me with this question, it really helped solidify a few things in my mind.
    No problem!

    Yeah, part of the confusion is exactly what happened the last time I talked to you about this -- namely, what's YOUR opinion? Are you even saying your opinion? Even after our last convo and after all this, I can still only slightly presume your real opinion on this (besides that you think harassment is wrong).
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  3. #253
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    That's actually a good question.

    "Culture of fear" maybe, emphasizing the fear that women have to live with every day? From my reading, and my own experience, I find that explaining that fear inspires the "You have to put up with THAT?! Every day?!" response, along with possible comments along the lines of, "I'm gonna have a word or two with my buds on how they talk with you or about you." Take advantage of the natural protective instincts of men towards women!

    And you're prolly right on my Ni+9. I'm shifting gears in a few different ways, trying to synthesize perspectives. Thank you for prompting me with this question, it really helped solidify a few things in my mind.
    I like that -and I find that many men will stand by you once they have a connection to you and see just how uncomfortable the guy is making you. Hell, they'll even be outraged at things that I just shrug off coz they're so low on the risk scale and so common that it aint worth the effort. It truly is endearing and sweet to watch and I'm always intensely grateful for it.

    The problem is communicating that your fears are legitimate when they don't witness it first hand - which unfortunately, is usually the case as guys instinctively know better than to do this in front of other men - especially friends or boyfriends. It's the recounting later on - when you're clearly fine, that they're like 'Well', it might've been uncomfortable, but you're fine and the guy was just a creep or a douche - or worse- , just trying to get some, so big deal.' They compare it to how they would have responded in that situation instead of actually empathising with the crucial difference in experience for a woman (and who can blame them, they have no way to relate). They get defensive and feel that you're dramatising - that you shouldn't be scared and either tell them off or just call the police. Trying to explain to them that that could be escalate things for the worse and the police doesn't even have the power to do anything about a long-term, anonymous stalker, let alone someone who harasses you one time usually gets met with an 'I don't believe that, just call them!', at which point they walk away from the convo. And that is if they believe it happened at all. Much of this of course stems from their feeling that they cannot do anything - they cannot fix it, so it frustrates them and makes them feel just as helpless as women do during. The thing they can do though is evaluate if they do this to others themselves - and call out their mates to stop doing this to others.

    Interestingly, many men don't know how to respond themselves when they are truly in that situation themselves - aka, when they get hit on by an aggressive 'alpha' gay man. Suddenly, they feel threatened and outraged that that guy even approached them. And ...it has been suggested that this is one reason to be homophobic - because it is such a new and unpleasant experience/threat to them. The inexperience of handling this kind of situation, the helplessness and the confusion it causes tends to be...overwhelming.

    I'll admit to having said in frustration before 'guys should really be encouraged to go to a gay bar for a week, and see how they like it - the compliments, the attention AND the aggressive pursuits.' Because that could actually drive home what it is like - every day.
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  4. #254
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    I believe that there is a culture of victim-blaming that has arisen... but that it is accidental and highly non-personal.

    I associate with what Uumlau said... I feel like most of my male relatives and guy friends would be really pissed off and would come to my defense if they were with me when men acted inappropriately and threateningly towards me.

    I feel like the "rape culture" that has happened is very subconscious... I don't think that the people participating really understand what's going on. I think they see things only through their perspective and can't immediately widen that just because someone else says they should.

    I think the key is education... but not education in tandem with alienation. I don't think "rape culture" is a useful framework because it alienates the men women are trying to get to cooperate with us.

  5. #255
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Default Do You Believe Rape Culture Exists?

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    [*]When a woman hears "rape", she feels fear. [*]When a man hears "rape", he hears an accusation.
    What........are you talking about?


    I am a man, when I hear rape, I don't say, "No way not me, man!!"

    I think, "Rape is bad news bears."
    Last edited by johnnyyukon; 06-05-2014 at 12:52 PM. Reason: bih
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  6. #256
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I was just out walking my little white dog, thinking of this thread, when a man in his early 60's calls out to me while getting into his SUV, "How do you keep that dog so white?" I laugh, keep walking and say back, "It's not easy, especially if it rains!" A pretty innocuous exchange, almost neighborly. He gets into his vehicle, I can hear the car door close, I turn the corner of the sidestreet close to our house and I can hear from behind me that he has turned the same way I am walking. I can sense he's going to stop and I keep walking but I look over and he says next from the car window, "I don't know why people live in the Viagra Village out there!" I make some sort of non-committal reply, like "oh yeah" and he comments on how the brick houses there are too close together. Not sure what he's getting at, I say, "It's not my thing." To which he replies, "Me neither, I like to make some noise."

    So, in that moment, faced with a dirty old man joke, I have to decide how I'll handle it. (Tell a person who is only 2 blocks from my home to f off or brush him off?) I acknowledge his "bad" joke with a wave of my hand and tell him to go on his way. And I noted his vehicle make and didn't get all of the plate number, but now I have had to do a mental threat assessment of this guy who thinks it's ok to pull up to a woman you don't know and make suggestive comments. I watched to make sure his vehicle was no where in sight when I walked into my house. I'll think this about later on tonight and watch to make sure I don't see his creepy ass anywhere near here. Because I don't know how much of a threat he is. But I do know he thinks it's ok to invade my space while I'm out for a walk.

    My thoughts during the walk were that this is a "predator vs prey" world. That power is hierarchical, a lot of people want as much as they can get, and they'll do a lot to get that power. So yes, we live in a world that has seen women as lesser, weaker and chattel and we still live out that legacy even today, even in the most peaceful-looking and "gentlemanly" of places. You can still have a dirty old man pull up and think you should enjoy hearing his dirty old jokes.
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  7. #257
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You can still have a dirty old man pull up and think you should enjoy hearing his dirty old jokes.
    Did you really give him any reason to think otherwise in your exchange though? You literally did nothing in that exchange to set up boundaries. Ideally, sure, he's old enough to know better... ideally. But did you do your part in creating a boundary in the absense of one? You literally let someone 2 houses away from you go on thinking you're cool with jokes like that. Not a good way to start that off--now it's loads of what-ifs and eggshell walking. This is one of those things where likely this guy isn't out to rape you--he's probably far from it in his mind. Likely. That doesn't make his behavior appropriate at all, but instead of those soft replies you gave him.. why not a simple, polite, but blunt, "I don't really like jokes like that" to shut him down. Why not a though to dial 911 and just leave it in your phone just in case while you stand some ground? Why not make it clear without ANY room for error where you stand?

    I think that getting loud and open, at the risk of seeming 'bitchy' or 'sensitive' is still safer than saying nothing. I think that making your own boundaries known anywhere the situation calls for it is a really important aspect to the "Yes means yes" campaign.
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  8. #258
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Busking was eye-opening to me. I certainly realized that there were a significant number of of men who felt entitled to overstep boundaries and take as a welcome sign anyone who was willing to engage with them, even in very minor ways (in this case, playing music in public afforded opportunity to initiate conversation without immediately being shut down in a way that most other situations don't). I think that it will take more than the few decades that women (in the Western world) have had earning power and legal options, to dispel some of the deeply ingrained attitudes and behaviours that have come along with centuries of dependence on men for subsistence and for protection. The progress I have seen in my own lifetime in attitudes towards minority groups who have traditionally been disadvantaged in terms of power makes me hopeful that there will continue to be changes in this area as well.

    I agree that the ball shouldn't always be in womens' courts to educate or prevent inappropriate or bad things from happening. At the same time, I believe that by drawing boundaries sooner than later, and being more direct than usual discourse would suggest is polite when someone tests the waters in verbally or physically suggestive and socially inappropriate (though not overtly dangerous) ways (and teaching the males close to us to do the same, not only in defense of a specific female, but when that kind of talk comes up in male only company generally), it creates awareness and sets a standard and will have a societal impact. We do teach people how to treat us, and I think it is very important to clearly and directly state when other people have crossed a line and to not allow it to remain a private thing that can gather momentum or allow the other person to think you are cool with it. More often than not, the message is being clearly sent (which is a sexual one), yet it is delivered privately and is not overt enough that the receiver is sure enough of themselves to make a big deal of it and it allows wiggle room for the perpetrator to deny that that was what they meant at all. This is one reason why it is important to have scripted yourself before in a variety of situations about what you could say or do that brings those behaviours into the open and which make it clear that they will not be tolerated. Otherwise, it is easy to freeze, second guess oneself, or follow the path of least resistance, which is not kind or fair to any of the people involved (including the perpetrator or their future targets).

    When I was a kid, making Ukranian jokes at a public event was deemed completely acceptable. So was using the word "gay" as a derogative descriptor. We didn't see First Nations people working in stores in town, or holding professional positions in the community. It was only when I was an elementary school aged kid that women's shelter's were being established. Those things have changed drastically in the course of 20 years and people wouldn't laugh at jokes they once did (even if it weren't a public setting where they'd feel more free to let everything hang out). In my grandma's early years, women weren't allowed to own property. In my mum's time, career choices were mostly limited to teacher, nurse or secretary, with a few exceptions. I believe there is progress being made, but certainly public discourse is important.

    I do think that it is important for men to personalize the problem by understanding what specific women they know experience regularly, as that is the first step to understanding. However, I also feel that there is a need for education from a young age (in the same sense as there is beginning to be with bullying) that being a bystander is just as serious as being a perpetrator. I have seen a lot of men that aren't bad people on their own remain friends with men who don't treat women respectfully, depending on the company they are in and what they can get away with. By not calling their friend to account, or choosing to quit being friends with them if they persist in behaving that way, it is a tacit way of saying that that kind of behaviour is acceptable. That, to me, is what I find more of an issue than random men on the street catcalling, or even dealing with a lot of workplace harassment. When good men stay quiet (and I'm not suggesting that all do), it tells the others that they are only paying lip service to women in public, but really hold the same values as their friends in private, which gives a sense of entitlement or solidarity to those men.

  9. #259
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    that's sort of like the ideological equivalent of gringo / goy / gaijin / "not my own": you are assuming that different people have the same world view because you find their decisions antagonizing for a similar reason. the parallels aren't within their decision making process, it's within the reason you dislike it - your own world view. essentially the base mistake is interpreting other people's decisions by thinking they are making their decisions within the framework of your world view to began with and thus simplifying other people's world view as nothing but their stance on yours - not really acknowledging they are each making it within there's to began with. i.e. a rabbi might think eating shrimps is a sin, but that's not enough to say that an atheists an indo and a christian all share the same underlining world view - their respective world views aren't really deciding that it's ok to eat shrimps within the rabbi's framework to began with. alternatively, i might think that withholding shrimps from yourself is inhumane (so delicious) and thus have the same internal reaction to the rabbi the vegan and the shellfish-allergy guy (who wants to live forever? shrimps are worth it!), but that's not a common thread within their world views, it's a common thread within my reaction to their world views.
    Not sure if I understand this post correctly. It only seems to make sense if what you mean is that "both genders should be treated with the same respect" and "both genders have the same inherent worth" are positions that are up for debate. I doubt that that's what you mean, but it's the only way I can see right now that this post would make sense.

    Also, I did't say "I've got nothing against men, some of my best friends are men". If that is what you heard, you didn't read me properly. I said: I love men and want their lot to improve just as I want the lot of women to improve.
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  10. #260
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Did you really give him any reason to think otherwise in your exchange though? You literally did nothing in that exchange to set up boundaries. Ideally, sure, he's old enough to know better... ideally. But did you do your part in creating a boundary in the absense of one? You literally let someone 2 houses away from you go on thinking you're cool with jokes like that. Not a good way to start that off--now it's loads of what-ifs and eggshell walking. This is one of those things where likely this guy isn't out to rape you--he's probably far from it in his mind. Likely. That doesn't make his behavior appropriate at all, but instead of those soft replies you gave him.. why not a simple, polite, but blunt, "I don't really like jokes like that" to shut him down. Why not a though to dial 911 and just leave it in your phone just in case while you stand some ground? Why not make it clear without ANY room for error where you stand?

    I think that getting loud and open, at the risk of seeming 'bitchy' or 'sensitive' is still safer than saying nothing. I think that making your own boundaries known anywhere the situation calls for it is a really important aspect to the "Yes means yes" campaign.
    Nice.

    Maybe you are right, and if you're that quick in the moment, good for you. I'm not. Yet I also feel angry with you for shaming me here for my choice to deflect. Each choice has pros and cons and you're suggesting that your statement would set an appropriate boundary, when in reality, it could just as likely set a future target on me to "put me in my place".

    My post was intended to reflect the irony of my mental ponderings and then be immediately faced with the real-life issues that we face every day. Instead I feel like you're blaming me for what happened, instead of me not having to worry about being talked to suggestively while walking my dog in the first place.
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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