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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #241
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    @uumlau (and others), it seems like you're more concerned about precision of language than you are about the meat and potatoes of what this term refers to. I find that difficult to parse.
    The topic of the thread is "Do you believe that rape culture exists?" Thus it posits that it possibly doesn't exist and questions what exactly it is. If the topic of the thread were "How should we address rape culture?" then the meat and potatoes of rape culture would be of concern.

    And as I've repeatedly said, the issues that comprise rape culture bear addressing, and are worthy of deep discussion. I'm pointing out why calling it "rape culture" makes it more difficult, not easier, to address those issues. This isn't semantics. This isn't being nitpicky. This is saying, "If you want to have a deep, meaningful 'meat and potatoes' discussion, why use fighting words?"
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #242
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This isn't semantics. This isn't being nitpicky. This is saying, "If you want to have a deep, meaningful 'meat and potatoes' discussion, why use fighting words?"
    Lol. No. Doesn't sound like semantics even a little bit...

    What if, for the sake of argument, no one wants to talk about your meat and veg, though. What if they wanted to talk about cultural mores that actively promote or dismiss rape? Pithily entitled "Rape Culture", the term people who cared enough to notice came up with decades ago. It doesn't matter if it offends your sense of delicacy to hear the R word. You don't get to redefine the discussion or restate the terms to suit yourself and your idea of what "meaningful" should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #243
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Lol. No. Doesn't sound like semantics even a little bit...

    What if, for the sake of argument, no one wants to talk about your meat and veg, though.
    It has been discussed for decades. Increasing the volume doesn't improve communication. The problem with most such arguments isn't that no one is listening, it's that no one likes what they're hearing (other than their own voices ).

    What if they wanted to talk about cultural mores that actively promote or dismiss rape? Pithily entitled "Rape Culture", the term people who cared enough to notice came up with decades ago.
    I.e., the pithy term that begs the question. Are these things really promoting rape, or is it all just one big category error? No one gets to ask that if you start off with "rape culture," which is kind of the idea ...

    It doesn't matter if it offends your sense of delicacy to hear the R word.
    My sense of delicacy? No.

    My sense of rhetorical land-mines? Yes.

    You don't get to redefine the discussion or restate the terms to suit yourself and your idea of what "meaningful" should be.
    Actually, yes, yes we do. It's funny how communication works, isn't it?

    In general, if the flaw with a discussion is that no one likes what they're hearing, changing the terms/paradigm is just about the only way to stimulate new, real discussion. It doesn't always work, but I've found it's usually worth a shot.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #244
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^There's no "flaw with the discussion" other than your contribution to it, from what I've seen. Consider that the fact you just don't get it might point to a flaw in your ability to listen without immediately passing judgement. And this forum may be the be all and end all to you, but honestly, dude, it's not even remotely relevant. Whatever you might imagine to be the strength of your rhetorical powers, this is one discussion you won't be able to close down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #245
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I honestly think it would be just as dishonest to take the emotional charge being communicated with that word out of it - there is no word that really matches it, nor can deliver the message of terror that is felt by many women in quite the same way. I guess it is a matter of priorities.

    /0.02 cents.
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  6. #246
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I honestly think it would be just as dishonest to take the emotional charge being communicated with that word out of it - there is no word that really matches it, nor can deliver the message of terror that is felt by many women in quite the same way. I guess it is a matter of priorities.

    /0.02 cents.
    Amar, I very much appreciate the terror you communicate. I've been aware of it for a long time, and I empathize with it. I've been the guy who would walk with a female friend who needed to run an errand at night, back when we were too young to afford cars. I despise having to assuage such fears in the women I meet ... or to be more accurate, I am happy to listen and let them know I understand, but I hate that they're scared in the first place. It makes me feel a bit helpless, as I want to help, but I know I have no concrete help to offer other than the occasional instance where my presence can fend off other men.

    Perhaps I can explain why "rape" isn't the way to communicate that terror:
    • When a woman hears "rape", she feels fear.
    • When a man hears "rape", he hears an accusation.


    Perhaps the words "afraid" or "scared" would have the emotional impact you desire, without causing men to hear an implicit accusation.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #247
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    @uumlau Since you appear* to agree that rape culture exists (without wanting to call it that), and since you appear* to understand it, what would you suggest it be called, to maximize emotional impact for men?

    *I think your Ni+9 detachment is confusing a few people on this thread regarding these points
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  8. #248
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    @uumlau Since you appear* to agree that rape culture exists (without wanting to call it that), and since you appear* to understand it, what would you suggest it be called, to maximize emotional impact for men?

    *I think your Ni+9 detachment is confusing a few people on this thread regarding these points
    Why does the term used have to maximize the emotional impact on men?

  9. #249
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Why does the term used have to maximize the emotional impact on men?
    As @Amargith was saying, the term has a significant emotional impact on women. Which is why it is so effective with women. I'm trying to figure out if there's an equivalent term that will work with men.
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  10. #250
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Amar, I very much appreciate the terror you communicate. I've been aware of it for a long time, and I empathize with it. I've been the guy who would walk with a female friend who needed to run an errand at night, back when we were too young to afford cars. I despise having to assuage such fears in the women I meet ... or to be more accurate, I am happy to listen and let them know I understand, but I hate that they're scared in the first place. It makes me feel a bit helpless, as I want to help, but I know I have no concrete help to offer other than the occasional instance where my presence can fend off other men.

    Perhaps I can explain why "rape" isn't the way to communicate that terror:
    • When a woman hears "rape", she feels fear.
    • When a man hears "rape", he hears an accusation.


    Perhaps the words "afraid" or "scared" would have the emotional impact you desire, without causing men to hear an implicit accusation.
    And, as I showed you in PM, at the same time it is incredibly hard to communicate that terror even to loved ones who have never had to go through that. To get them to take it seriously. At least with the emotional charge in place, I get their attention. Honest to god, it wasn't till I put this name on it that they were pissed off enough to care and actually try and understand why I would *say* such a thing.

    It's kind of like women who laugh when a guy gets (accidentally or not) kicked in the nuts - coz even a soft kick will level him. It's just not something that we can relate to. However, explaining it to us by comparing it to pain we can actually relate to, or to something that is 'equally wrong' might make us first defensive (coz it wasn't that hard in the first place!), but at least we're no longer dismissive. You got our attention and the communication is finally getting through.

    Add to that that as a woman, these behaviours ALL get red flagged as potential man who might just go to the extreme aka rape when they do them to me, and I assure you - I see no qualms in calling the pattern that Ive been through so many times 'Rape Culture'. They're just different escalations of the same thing, imho.

    Meanwhile only the end result of that pattern gets vilified while the rest gets tolerated as 'boys will be boys' while women are getting gaslit when they relate their experiences, told they need to take it as a compliment and stop being so scared already as it is just a form of hiding 'bragging' about the fact that you got attention to get more attention.

    Somehow the fact that the underlying mentality is akin to that of a rapists, just on a different intensity level/place of the grayscale...is irrelevant to people. That, to me is mind boggling, sorry.

    I get it - it is incredibly accusational to hear that you might share behaviours with a rapist. I understand that that is hard to hear. Nobody wants to be likened to that as it is a heinous crime. And most men certainly would never be rapists. However, it doesn't negate the truth that many of them have been taught behaviours that indicate reason for concern on the woman's part, and some actually act them out - however painful. And even fewer actually believe they AREN'T rapists due to the condoning of these behaviours and cannot fathom ever being one, despite fitting the technical definition of it - due to 'mitigating circumstances'. It is especially these latter that need to be woken up.

    Does that mean I call all those men that have been raised that these behaviours are things they can get away with cos they're no big deal 'rapists'? No, I don't - and many of them are in fact good guys who just...don't know any better and *would* change their behaviour if they just knew how much terror they caused. The amount of surprise that men who read #Yesallwomen displayed is...staggering coz they honestly don't know how to fathom that it could be that scary being female in this world - it's not their reality.

    So yes, I do think that calling it Rape Culture might be the first step to getting this addressed. As hard as it is to hear, it actually communicates the message that hey, you might know you aint going to rape her, but she sure as hell doesn't with all the signals you're giving off! And she has 10 seconds-10 minutes ,depending on your interaction to gauge that - and be scared of you at the same time. What a lovely world to live in.

    And I hope that we can get passed the fear, as well as have men get passed the accusation and come together to work this out - that we can show that these behaviours are in fact harmful instead of the innocuous label that they get in today's society. I seriously hope we can hammer that home while communicating that this certainly should apply to all genders. Im normally one for talking about 'people' instead of men and women and imho, this is a way of increasing the potential to relate to each other once we get passed the butthurt and actually 'become people' - as men definitely suffer this shit as well and cannot even express it in todays society. While women get gaslit for talking about this shit, men actually get beat up while being told to man up.

    Would you rather use 'Bullying'? It is less specified on the sexual component of it, but has a somewhat similar emotional charge and is closer than Rape, I suppose, to harassment. And bullying is after all the little brother of this shit, and needs to be addressed in the same way, imho.
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