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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am white, and I am not sure really what there is to identify with on that level. Whites come from a very broad spectrum of cultures, from Scandinavian, to Irish, to Mediterranian, to Slavic and others in between. White folks I know, myself included, tend to identify more with their specific culture than with the fact that they have light skin.
    This is something I am very aware of, my definition of nationalism is not pan ethnic. Actually I have noticed the opposite, that people in America identify racially.

    Why I think this is is another topic, which I will start a thread on...that way things can continue uninterrupted here.

  2. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    We can call it "rape culture" for short, or something else. Like @Ivy, I personally don't care. As Gingko wrote, it is the ideas that are important and need to be discussed, regardless of what they are called. "Rape culture" by any other name smells just as foul.
    right now, there are men who view themselves as entitled to sex because they react with gender-wide resentment for sexual rejection.
    replace "sexual rejection" with "lineage holocaust" - the complete preemptive mass murder of the potential offspring' that never came to be...

    you honestly think it would make no difference to the dialogue?

    mind you, this isn't a unique tactics:
    the other side is pro baby death / the other side is against women's choices
    the other wants to let terrorists run free / the other side wants to take your freedom
    the other side wants to sacrifice our security / the side is pure warmongering
    ...likewise with this: the other side is promoting rape culture.

    framing such as those are an effective social strategy used when you want to isolate a side of the debate from any opposition on the ideology presented, and they work: so far, @Red Herring has provided parameters i can easily agree on as a problem, and i would bet most other men could too. but there was a reason i asked - i would never have guessed that the concept of rape culture could fit within those, and from previous discussions with other guys i can honestly say the prevailing sentiment before asking those questions (largely supported by @EJCC's links) is that the entire concept frames all men as representative of rape culture and all women as it's victims (also - the "some of my best friends are men" responses do not help the case).

    last but not least... is anyone who has actually being raped enjoying this framework? people lumping together everything from sexist remarks to being groped at a bar or even sexual fetishes with... rape? it's like you've had people who came to your house stole everything you owned and used details on your paperwork to empty your bank account.... and then i'd come and tell you that "i totally know what it feels to have your sense of trust and security violated and have people feeling entitled for your possessions because i gave someone a 20 and they never gave it back!".personally i hate that sort of shit, i've had people compare the lose of access to my son with them loosing their dog. it's the sort of pathetic and ignorant attempt to empathize that just ends up putting the burden of understanding on the people your trying to empathize with.

  3. #233
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Fia, sorry but this sounded like you'd automatically assume the worst about men who didn't side with you on this cause.

    There's no side. There's just reality and we are all a part of it.

    I hate this us against them, Women against men camp formation and stereotyping and hatred based on association.
    Women do not side against men. Men side against women. Stereotyping and hatred is men's property alone.

  4. #234
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Women do not side against men. Men side against women. Stereotyping and hatred is men's property alone.
    *wins his bet* @Maddy
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #235
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Sure, all sorts of cultures exist. The question ought to be, "How prevalent is it and why?"
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #236
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    last but not least... is anyone who has actually being raped enjoying this framework? people lumping together everything from sexist remarks to being groped at a bar or even sexual fetishes with... rape? it's like you've had people who came to your house stole everything you owned and used details on your paperwork to empty your bank account.... and then i'd come and tell you that "i totally know what it feels to have your sense of trust and security violated and have people feeling entitled for your possessions because i gave someone a 20 and they never gave it back!".personally i hate that sort of shit, i've had people compare the lose of access to my son with them loosing their dog. it's the sort of pathetic and ignorant attempt to empathize that just ends up putting the burden of understanding on the people your trying to empathize with.
    The point why it is called "rape culture" though is exactly because there is a connection. The person who makes lewed jokes about a co-worker shares a basic attitute with the guy who drags a girl behind a bush holding a knife to her throat. It is not the same thing and the first person is no rapist, but there is an underlying worldview/philosophy that is the basic problem.

    Everybody can agree that rape is bad. But when it comes to fighting the underlying issues, the less palpable stuff, the things that might hit closer to home, that is when many people start losing interest.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  7. #237
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    You really don't have to police the semantics of a concept this much.
    It only sounds like I am "policing semantics" because I am trying to be very precise in my meaning. I am attempting to be very precise in my meaning because if I am not, my words will be taken and twisted to fit whatever someone wants to complain about. The reason my words are likely to be taken and twisted is because it's called "rape culture." One wrong word can be turned into accusing me of being in favor of rape, or against women, or whatever other broad-based charge someone feels like leveling.

    One way or another, the thing itself is going to be stigmatized, and no amount of polishing a turd will make it not a turd. As Coriolis said, it would sound just as foul as anything else, since something like "Sexual Assault Culture" would detract from the most poignant part of it, creating a term that patronizes actual victims. I don't really care what you call it either, but since the thing is what it is, nitpicking seems like a waste of time.
    No, it isn't what it is. There is no one "thing." It's a broad spectrum of things, each with their own possible discussions and resolutions, stuck under a deliberately provocative label designed to incite passion and stifle discussion. And then everyone wonders why discussion is stifled.

    And it isn't just the "rape" term. Everyone is against "rape." "Culture" is what makes it huge and vague. So if someone has an answer for any particular piece of the problem, one can simply bring up another piece of the problem, and dismiss the answer by saying, "Well, yeah, but what about THIS?!"

    It's not "poignancy." It's hyperbole. I remain unashamed of "detracting from" hyperbole.

    And, frankly, "INTJ" or any other type label could brim with baggage too.
    "Could", but it doesn't. Where "rape" obviously does. Is its "poignancy" so valuable that you prefer the drama to the solutions?

    Have you seen the INTJ-ENFP Fetishes thread? It would change your life.
    You have cause and effect backward. My life created huge sections of that thread.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #238
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    @uumlau (and others), it seems like you're more concerned about precision of language than you are about the meat and potatoes of what this term refers to. I find that difficult to parse.

  9. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    The point why it is called "rape culture" though is exactly because there is a connection. The person who makes lewed jokes about a co-worker shares a basic attitute with the guy who drags a girl behind a bush holding a knife to her throat. It is not the same thing and the first person is no rapist, but there is an underlying worldview/philosophy that is the basic problem.
    I'm not going to read this thread as it's bound to be full of stupid, but I just caught your post and wanted to offer some supporting material for the non-thinking-challenged which explains the insidious effects of sexist humour.
    http://ejop.psychopen.eu/article/download/217/pdf

    Tl;dr :
    -Both men and women appreciate sexist humour insofar as they are high in hostile sexism.
    -Sexist humour creates hostile, distressing environments for women.
    -The extent to which sexist humour is tolerated directly affects how comfortable men feel discriminating against women or engaging in other sexist / misogynistic behaviour.

    Edit. Also, interesting is a study suggesting that porn consumption makes men (particularly T men) more hostile to women.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    The point why it is called "rape culture" though is exactly because there is a connection. The person who makes lewed jokes about a co-worker shares a basic attitute with the guy who drags a girl behind a bush holding a knife to her throat. It is not the same thing and the first person is no rapist, but there is an underlying worldview/philosophy that is the basic problem.

    Everybody can agree that rape is bad. But when it comes to fighting the underlying issues, the less palpable stuff, the things that might hit closer to home, that is when many people start losing interest.
    that's sort of like the ideological equivalent of gringo / goy / gaijin / "not my own": you are assuming that different people have the same world view because you find their decisions antagonizing for a similar reason. the parallels aren't within their decision making process, it's within the reason you dislike it - your own world view. essentially the base mistake is interpreting other people's decisions by thinking they are making their decisions within the framework of your world view to began with and thus simplifying other people's world view as nothing but their stance on yours - not really acknowledging they are each making it within there's to began with. i.e. a rabbi might think eating shrimps is a sin, but that's not enough to say that an atheists an indo and a christian all share the same underlining world view - their respective world views aren't really deciding that it's ok to eat shrimps within the rabbi's framework to began with. alternatively, i might think that withholding shrimps from yourself is inhumane (so delicious) and thus have the same internal reaction to the rabbi the vegan and the shellfish-allergy guy (who wants to live forever? shrimps are worth it!), but that's not a common thread within their world views, it's a common thread within my reaction to their world views.

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