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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #201
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Ultimately it is about having everyone's 'No' on any level respected ( as well as the ability to give such a 'no'). No, you don't get my time if I don't also agree to talking to you and you don't get to demand it either, or stall me coz you feel entitled to my answers (both genders!), no, I don't want you to touch me there, no I do not want to hear what you want to do to me and no I do not want to give you my phone number or tell you that I have a boy/girlfriend before you leave me alone.

    Let's play the 'No means yes' games only with people we know well enough to be sure of that meaning; where consent was given earlier and a good enough rapport has been established to actually gauge this stuff properly. If s/he seems ambiguous, leave your 'offer' on the table and give them time to mull it over - they'll come and get you if they want you to continue. There is nothing quite like someone who can walk the line between being completely honest and forward about his wants yet utterly respectful and attentive to the other person's needs - such as time and space to get on the same page or decline politely.

    The terror that one experiences from knowing that you cannot stop anything that will happen next - and not knowing what that will be - and the trauma that leaves afterwards is what we're trying to address here, after all.
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  2. #202
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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  3. #203
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    For the most part @Red Herring and @EJCC can speak for me re: @Society's questions and the legalities of everything. But one thing- I said earlier that I believe we've made a huge mistake in teaching our children about consent by drilling "no means no" into them. As a result many young people now think that if a person is incapable of saying no that they can't be raped. We should have been telling our kids that yes means yes. I don't remember who said it, but it rings true: "Consent is too low a bar- hold out for enthusiasm."

  4. #204
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    for the sake of clarification, neither said no and neither was in a position to make a sober decision.
    one is male, so there probably is a physical power imbalance in at least that sense.
    Maybe a little stupid on both sides then but no rape.

    ah. this man is still undecided. so far so good.
    Well, that's something. I consider myself a feminist, even an ardent one on occasion, and I love men. Not only sexually and romantically but also as friends, as brothers, etc. I get along with them very well and I have great sympathy for their situation and am not blind to how the current social system hurts them just as it hurst women. We should all be allies in an effort to make life more liveable for everyone.
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  5. #205
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Well, that's something. I consider myself a feminist, even an ardent one on occasion, and I love men. Not only sexually and romantically but also as friends, as brothers, etc. I get along with them very well and I have great sympathy for their situation and am not blind to how the current social system hurts them just as it hurst women. We should all be allies in an effort to make life more liveable for everyone.
    YES. All of this, a thousand times.

  6. #206
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    +2
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  7. #207
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    For the most part @Red Herring and @EJCC can speak for me re: @Society's questions and the legalities of everything. But one thing- I said earlier that I believe we've made a huge mistake in teaching our children about consent by drilling "no means no" into them. As a result many young people now think that if a person is incapable of saying no that they can't be raped. We should have been telling our kids that yes means yes. I don't remember who said it, but it rings true: "Consent is too low a bar- hold out for enthusiasm."
    Yeah, for sure. Plus, as a general rule, you should check in with your partner every once and a while during sex to see whether what you're doing is working for them. Or if that would ruin the mood, then at least make sure you've agreed on some kind of safe word! I see this as super important, but at the same time, pop culture doesn't show it much at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Well, that's something. I consider myself a feminist, even an ardent one on occasion, and I love men. Not only sexually and romantically but also as friends, as brothers, etc. I get along with them very well and I have great sympathy for their situation and am not blind to how the current social system hurts them just as it hurst women. We should all be allies in an effort to make life more liveable for everyone.
    !!
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  8. #208
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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  9. #209
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    <.<

    >.>

    I am going to attempt to speak very precisely about this topic that strongly resists anything resembling precision.

    Do the various phenomena that get classified under "rape culture" exist? Yes. Most definitely.
    Does a "rape culture" exist? Well, this question sounds precise, but it is intentionally vague, though not due to the OP being intentionally vague. The term "rape culture" is deliberately, intentionally vague and intellectually dishonest. Some have already mentioned that it's intended to get people emotionally worked up, and that is so, but even without the emotional impact, it would remain a slippery concept at best. Why else would "belief" be questioned, here?

    There are lots of terms like this, but they are usually combined with the word "social", e.g.,
    • social science, which cannot really be scientific
    • social justice, which is more about what one would prefer to be justice, not about justice itself
    • the social contract, where no contract of any constitutional or legal sort exists


    "Rape culture" is used much in the same way as "social contract" is used. When someone starts using the "social contract" to make their points, it's a weird combination of straw man and argument by authority, in that one posits a fake authority that happens to say whatever you want to say. With "rape culture", it means whatever the speaker wants it to mean at the moment, which is why it is such a catch-all topic of the issues women have with men in general. Just as there is no real contract involved with the "social contract", "rape culture" isn't really about rape. Rape is an easy topic. Everyone is against rape. "Rape culture" would seem to imply that there is a culture that promotes rape, cf. senza's comments, but you know it isn't about rape when all of these other topics, such as harassment, victim shaming, sexist remarks, etc., are involved,too. "Rape" is just being used as a teaser word for these topics, and as a rhetorical weapon against any apparent disagreement.

    Again, are these other issues legitimate? Entirely legitimate, and worthy of discussion. "Rape culture" is an intellectually dishonest obfuscation of the discussion: the people who deny that there is a rape culture do so precisely because our society condemns rape, but then all of these other (entirely legitimate) issues are brought up and classified as rape culture. Surely if the definition of "rape culture" is these issues, then rape culture must exist. What, you don't think rape culture exists? Then you are a PART of the rape culture, and you are the reason that we must all discuss the rape culture. Oh, and by implication, you are in favor of rape. These very legitimate issues are used to make "rape culture" seem like a legitimate topic.

    But there is no way it can be a legitimate topic, because we're calling it "rape culture". There wouldn't be such a flurry on the topic if it were called something tame, such as "harassment culture" or "women's issues" or "sexism".

    That is not to imply that those discussing this topic here are being intentionally dishonest. It has been, in fact, remarkably honest, and we've had a long, productive discussion of the topics under the umbrella of rape culture, which hasn't even begun to turn into a flame war. Rather, I am saying that the term "rape culture" is why people are having a difficult time discussing it at all, why it raises hackles and makes people wary of entering the discussion at all, and I'm rather impressed at the quality of discussion in spite of it all.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #210
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Actually, they feel remarkably interlinked to me as they're all forms of escalation of one theme: 'your protest is worth diddly.'
    The most extreme version of that is rape. It's the inherent lack of recognising the other person's right to be heard. To be a person, instead of an object for the other person's pleasure.

    Which leads to the ' s/he's ignored my first 10 objections and taken what they wanted anyways - god only knows where they'll actually stop' kind of terror.

    The pattern is excruciatingly obvious to recognise once you've been through it a few times.
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