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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #191
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    No I don't think it does.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    i have no.idea what this means.
    What I was saying was that feminists (and left wing educators in general) have neurotically tried to suppress the sense of identity specifically amongst white children, and white male children in particular. You are only allowed to see yourself as an individual, if you identify as a man, or even worse, white, you are demonised. The reason for this is because once you identify this way it immediately becomes obvious that many people around you are not the same, and the reality that people do differ is something the political left wants to eradicate.

    I am in Generation Y and went to public schools, so I'm not ignorant of political indoctrination.

    So what does this have to do with the vid? Basically, a man who grew up in a completely conditioned environment like the one I described above could easily turn out that way. And at least in America, men like that do exist. Feminists are conflicted about them...in theory they praise such men's lack of masculinity but deep down despise them for that precise reason.

  3. #193
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    question:

    for the people who are arguing in favor of the framing of rape culture:
    (or in particular @Ivy & @EJCC, since you seem to be on the lead on this topic)

    can you answer the following:
    in trial, the accused is usually considered innocent until proven guilty - should rape be an exception?
    where you otherwise believe the 1st amendment & free speech applies - should speech about rape be an exception?
    two people have sex, neither of them explicitly asked the other to have sex, neither said no. one of them has a penis, the other's a vagina. is he a rapist? is she?
    two people get drunk, have sex & regret it after. one of them has a penis, the other's a vagina. is he a rapist? is she?
    does your definition of "rape culture" extend to include consensual sexual behaviors ( i.e. dominant male behavior, passive female behavior, the word "hit on", couples enjoying power play, aggressive sex or even outright BDSM, males and/or females who prefer males be the initiators, single men who use PUA, single women who use cosmo seduction tips, or anything else you can think of that might fit into this category)?

  4. #194
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    7/10 of the forum believe in the existence of rape culture...that makes me pretty proud of typoc, actually. That's got to be much higher than the general pop.

    I wonder how many of typoc believe in global warming?

  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    question:

    can you answer the following:
    in trial, the accused is usually considered innocent until proven guilty - should rape be an exception?
    No, of course not. That is exactly why there are many cases where rapists do not get convicted. It gets down to medical evidence and word against word. That might be frustrating but the alternatives seem worse.

    Only very, very few rape accusations that make it to court turn out to be false. The fear of having your life ruined by something like this is understandable but largely unfounded and mainly a myth (and one that tends to hurt women and benefit men).

    where you otherwise believe the 1st amendment & free speech applies - should speech about rape be an exception?
    Wut? Who ever suggested that? However, there are many things that are allowed and should be allowed and are yet still a sign of somebody being an idiot or an asshole.There is no law against being one, but others will call you out on it, rightly so.

    two people have sex, neither of them explicitly asked the other to have sex, neither said no. one of them has a penis, the other's a vagina. is he a rapist? is she?
    Probably not, depends on the circumstances. Was one of them drugged or threatened or was there some other form of extreme power imbalance?


    two people get drunk, have sex & regret it after. one of them has a penis, the other's a vagina. is he a rapist? is she?
    Whoever continues although the other person says no or is clearly not in a position to make any decisions like that anymore while the first person still is in control. Once again, is there a power imbalance?


    does your definition of "rape culture" extend to include consensual sexual behaviors ( i.e. dominant male behavior, passive female behavior, the word "hit on", couples enjoying power play, aggressive sex or even outright BDSM, males and/or females who prefer males be the initiators, single men who use PUA, single women who use cosmo seduction tips, or anything else you can think of that might fit into this category)?
    Nope, not really. And I don't know anybody who would. A playful use of dominance in bed has zero to do with rape. Rape is usually about ignoring and even knowingly breaking the will of another person. The opposite is the case in sex games. Pick-up lines are corny and I dislike them, but neither a man not a woman using them is "rape-y".


    What does fit into the framework of rape culture is men thinking women owe them sex. Men thinking evil feminazis are out to get them and accuse all men of being monsters. Women thinking other women are sluts and begging for some desaster to happen if they dress sexy. Women or men excusing a rapist's behavior. Women or men egging young men on to go for it and take what they want. Raising young women to always be careful and live in constant fear is (luckily I was not raised that way, I have always walked the streets at night without much of a worry and spend a day alone in New Delhi - also known as rape capital - but few of my female friends would).

    And yes, there are male victims and prison rape especially is a shame to society as a whole. I am the first to admit that. I hate, hate, hate it when somebody says something like "I hope that murderer/child molester, etc. gets raped in prison"! That is not part of the penalty. Taking away a prisoner's freedom is. Period. Prisoners have a right to be safe and protected while they are guardians of the state.

    But outside prisons the numbers are so unevenly spread among the genders that "there are also male victoms" (though true) is just as unhelpful as "but not all men...". You (not you specifically, of course, the rhetorical you) are stating the obvious and simultaneously distracting from the main issue and downplaying it.
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  6. #196
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    No, of course not. That is exactly why there are many cases where rapists do not get convicted. It gets down to medical evidence and word against word. That might be frustrating but the alternatives seem worse.
    i
    Only very, very few rape accusations that make it to court turn out to be false. The fear of having your life ruined by something like this is understandable but largely unfounded and mainly a myth (and one that tends to hurt women and benefit men).



    Wut? Who ever suggested that? However, there are many things that are allowed and should be allowed and are yet still a sign of somebody being an idiot or an asshole.There is no law against being one, but others will call you out on it, rightly so.



    Probably not, depends on the circumstances. Was one of them drugged or threatened or was there some other form of extreme power imbalance?




    Whoever continues although the other person says no or is clearly not in a position to make any decisions like that anymore while the first person still is in control. Once again, is there a power imbalance?




    Nope, not really. And I don't know anybody who would. A playful use of dominance in bed has zero to do with rape. Rape is usually about ignoring and even knowingly breaking the will of another person. The opposite is the case in sex games. Pick-up lines are corny and I dislike them, but neither a man not a woman using them is "rape-y".


    What does fit into the framework of rape culture is men thinking women owe them sex. Men thinking evil feminazis are out to get them and accuse all men of being monsters. Women thinking other women are sluts and begging for some desaster to happen if they dress sexy. Women or men excusing a rapist's behavior. Women or men egging young men on to go for it and take what they want. Raising young women to always be careful and live in constant fear is (luckily I was not raised that way, I have always walked the streets at night without much of a worry and spend a day alone in New Delhi - also known as rape capital - but few of my female friends would).

    And yes, there are male victims and prison rape especially is a shame to society as a whole. I am the first to admit that. I hate, hate, hate it when somebody says something like "I hope that murderer/child molester, etc. gets raped in prison"! That is not part of the penalty. Taking away a prisoner's freedom is. Period. Prisoners have a right to be safe and protected while they are guardians of the state.

    But outside prisons the numbers are so unevenly spread among the genders that "there are also male victoms" (though true) is just as unhelpful as "but not all men...". You (not you specifically, of course, the rhetorical you) are stating the obvious and simultaneously distracting from the main issue and downplaying it.
    really well said lady. I'm not sure what the motivation behind the post you quoted was but its upsetting.
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  7. #197
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    question:

    for the people who are arguing in favor of the framing of rape culture:
    (or in particular @Ivy & @EJCC, since you seem to be on the lead on this topic)

    can you answer the following:
    in trial, the accused is usually considered innocent until proven guilty - should rape be an exception?
    where you otherwise believe the 1st amendment & free speech applies - should speech about rape be an exception?
    two people have sex, neither of them explicitly asked the other to have sex, neither said no. one of them has a penis, the other's a vagina. is he a rapist? is she?
    two people get drunk, have sex & regret it after. one of them has a penis, the other's a vagina. is he a rapist? is she?
    does your definition of "rape culture" extend to include consensual sexual behaviors ( i.e. dominant male behavior, passive female behavior, the word "hit on", couples enjoying power play, aggressive sex or even outright BDSM, males and/or females who prefer males be the initiators, single men who use PUA, single women who use cosmo seduction tips, or anything else you can think of that might fit into this category)?
    I actually think answering these might help people to understand what rape culture is; as feminists (as a heterogeneous group) are likely to understand it. Keep in mind these are my answers and others will differ.

    in trial, the accused is usually considered innocent until proven guilty - should rape be an exception?

    It shouldn't and its not in our society.

    where you otherwise believe the 1st amendment & free speech applies - should speech about rape be an exception?

    Are there incite to violence laws in the US? Im actually from the UK. Anyway, generally, "speech" about rape should not be an exception--free speech should apply. So I would include things such as distasteful rape jokes and even movies that glorify and eroticise rape, for example. I don't think any feminists are calling for even the most hideous of rape jokes to become illegal. Rather, they want a social consciousness that would make such rape jokes socially censored--such as how overt racism is now socially censored.

    two people have sex, neither of them explicitly asked the other to have sex, neither said no. one of them has a penis, the other's a vagina. is he a rapist? is she?

    That entirely depends on context. So yes, I believe sex can take place, without explicit consent, and not be rape. To know that it isn't rape we would have to look at the implicit consent and context. If we know that she wasn't too drunk to give consent, or that she wasn't under threat, or the same for him, and that implicit consent is present in the form of body-language/activeness/relationship between the two parties etc. For example, if she is being entirely passive I think it would be a very good idea for him to overtly ask her if consent is given--just to be sure.

    This is something to be decided on a case-by-case basis.

    two people get drunk, have sex & regret it after. one of them has a penis, the other's a vagina. is he a rapist? is she?

    Neither of them are rapists. If only she, or only he, regretted it after, the opposite party would not be a rapist. The whole "She had sex but regretted it after so cried rape" idea is massively overblown. They state that the motivation of this regret is the desire not to seem a slut in the public eye--yet somehow the stigma of being raped and the trials of working through a rape accusation aren't even worse? Flagrant misrepresentation of what even the most cynical and selfish young woman would do.

    Also -10 for equating sex with gender.

    does your definition of "rape culture" extend to include consensual sexual behaviors ( i.e. dominant male behavior, passive female behavior, the word "hit on", couples enjoying power play, aggressive sex or even outright BDSM, males and/or females who prefer males be the initiators, single men who use PUA, single women who use cosmo seduction tips, or anything else you can think of that might fit into this category)?

    Mine does. But this is more of a disputed topic amongst feminists. If you'd like to go back and read my previous posts you'd see that I define rape culture pretty broadly--but as a side effect of this broad definition I also hold that rape culture doesn't in itself have to be bad. BDSM, for example, can be an example of rape culture done right. In "good" BDSM, despite it obviously emulating--and in this manner some sense accepting--non-consensual sex, has a persistant emphasis on the importance of consent to the activity of BDSM that might actually teach the importance of consent in life generally. BDSM, precisely because it seems to be so close to rape, has to reject it. And I don't mind an article of rape culture that accepts rape on some levels to reject it on other, more fundamental or important levels. Ultimately, what matters is if the cultural artifact produces or works against the production of rape behaviors, as well as whatever positive or negative effects it has culturally.

    I wouldn't include male initiators or women using cosmo tips in rape culture. These things are problematic for other reasons. I might include PUA but not because of the actual techniques themselves, but because of the culture that surrounds their community.

    Couples enjoying power play is case-by-case. I would say that one article of rape culture I do find negative is many "rough" porn videos, that contain an acceptance of rape without a necessary rejection of it. (The rejection is merely implicit and weak) Such videos also tie rape behavior into masculine identity, and this makes it an especially noxious and potent article of rape culture.

  8. #198
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Good answers, folks. I'm on Red Herring's side with the last question, though.

    I would add that when a rapist is ruled innocent because of lack of evidence, it is often because the victim didn't report it quickly enough. However, there are a lot of fears that women might have with regard to reporting the crime. Most of those fears have to do with other people's lack of sensitivity*. See this famous editorial from the Harvard Crimson for some prime examples -- also the statutory rape case in Montana where the man, her schoolteacher, was sentenced to 30 days(I think?) in jail because the girl was supposedly mature for her age.

    *Edit: Other people's lack of sensitivity leading to the rapist going free
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  9. #199
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    I realize my position is a little eccentric, and do promise that I'm not doing it for attention! It just seems the most consistent view to me. I'm not above having it critiqued, or having my mind changed on it.

    Ultimately, we've all got to draw our lines somewhere. What perhaps we can agree on is that society at large, the dominant paradigm toward non-consensual sexual behavior, is drawing its line way out.

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Whoever continues although the other person says no or is clearly not in a position to make any decisions like that anymore while the first person still is in control. Once again, is there a power imbalance?
    for the sake of clarification, neither said no and neither was in a position to make a sober decision.
    one is male, so there probably is a physical power imbalance in at least that sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Men thinking evil feminazis are out to get them and accuse all men of being monsters.
    ah. this man is still undecided. so far so good.

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