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View Poll Results: Do you believe rape culture exists?

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  • Yes

    47 72.31%
  • No

    18 27.69%
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  1. #151
    Chaser of Light Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    I often think people needlessly complicate this topic. As long as you live in a country that rationalises, justifies, and trivialises sexual assault; you live in a country that has a rape culture. That is to say every country on earth. In any other form of physical assault do we so readily question the validity of the victim’s perspective? We are enablers who by our very actions we distort the course of justice; as long as this enabling effects judicial systems rape culture will exist.

    On top of which the counter arguments are ridiculous. I’ll go through three of the common ones:

    Womenz be gagging for it. Ludicrous, to use an analogy: If I was walking down the street cricket bat in hand (as you do.). When a guy wearing a “please hit me!” walked past me. I then decide to break his ribs with said cricket bat, am I justified in doing so? If by common assault standards it is held as assault by the reigning judiciary; then it should hold true across the board regardless of the prevailing general opinion.

    Next is the; if we convict people and they’re innocent we ruin their lives! Firstly I would like to congratulate those people cynical enough to believe this their on newly built log cabins in the middle of nowhere. Honestly though how common do you really think this is? I mean to charge and carry this out is not a moment of intense anger its cold and calculated. How many people have it in them to destroy someone’s life with whom they have had such an intimate connection with? I would guess that the opposite is actually far more common; that people hold back and rationalise the incident for fear of ruining someone’s life.

    I’m an egalitarian who believes in no special treatment for anyone. That is a very noble sentiment, but it makes you a complete hypocrite. Sexual assault is treated differently from all other violent crime, it becomes about perspective, about qualifiers, and public attitude. Instead of a cold hard impartial justice.

    Now at some point someone is going to point out evidence and sexual assault. If it was only about this then honestly I would understand why the state of sexual assault convictions is the way it is, but that is only part of it. An example is probably best. The way the police treated the victims, their failure to act, the boys will be boys attitude. When a judiciary system is so bogged down in cultural attitudes it fails to act with the empiricism we expect of it. Then how can we say that rape culture does not exist.

    I should at this point expand on why New Zealand is such a poignant example. This is a country that regularly places extremely well on economic and civil liberty (first modern country to allow women the vote, one of the first to allow gay marriage.) OECD and many other ranking systems: A country that punches well above its weight in most areas. If it is so rampant there then how do you imagine other countries fair?

    I will also add that I say this as someone who is fairly obtuse to both people and social conventions, and who really isn’t all that intelligent; yet I find all of this so incredibly obvious.
    Last edited by Dr Mobius; 06-03-2014 at 02:57 AM.
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  2. #152
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    I often think people needlessly complicate this topic. As long as you live in a country that rationalises, justifies, and trivialises sexual assault; you live in a country that has a rape culture. That is to say every country on earth. In any other form of physical assault do we so readily question the validity of the victim’s perspective? We are enablers who by our very actions are distorting the course of justice, as long as this enabling effects judicial systems rape culture will exist.

    On top of which the counter arguments are ridiculous. I’ll go through three of the common ones:

    Womenz be gagging for it. Ludicrous, to use an analogy: If I was walking down the street cricket bat in hand (as you do.). When a guy wearing a “please hit me!” walked past me. I then decide to break his ribs with said cricket bat, am I justified in doing so? If by common assault standards it is held as assault by the reigning judiciary; then it should hold true across the board regardless of the prevailing general opinion.

    Next is the; if we convict people and they’re innocent we ruin their lives! Firstly I would like to congratulate those people cynical enough to believe this their on newly built log cabins in the middle of nowhere. Honestly though how common do you really think this is? I mean to charge and carry this out is not a moment of intense anger its cold and calculated. How many people have it in them to destroy someone’s life with whom they have had such an intimate connection with? I would guess that the opposite is actually far more common; that people hold back and rationalise the incident for fear of ruining someone’s life.

    I’m an egalitarian who believes in no special treatment for anyone. That is a very noble sentiment, but it makes you a complete hypocrite. Sexual assault is treated differently from all other violent crime, it becomes about perspective, about qualifiers, and public attitude. Instead of a cold hard impartial justice.

    Now at some point someone is going to point out evidence and sexual assault. If it was only about this then honestly I would understand why the state of sexual assault convictions is the way it is, but that is only part of it. An example is probably best. The way the police treated the victims, their failure to act, the boys will be boys attitude. When a judiciary system is so bogged down in cultural attitudes it fails to act with the empiricism we expect of it. Then how can we say that rape culture does not exist.

    I should at this point expand on why New Zealand is such a poignant example. This is a country that regularly places extremely well on economic and civil liberty (first modern country to allow women the vote, one of the first to allow gay marriage.) OECD and many other ranking systems: A country that punches well above its weight in most areas. If it is so rampant there then how do you imagine other countries fair?

    I will also add that I say this as someone who is fairly obtuse to both people and social conventions, and who really isn’t all that intelligent; yet I find all of this so incredibly obvious.

  3. #153
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    just out of curiosity... does murder culture exists?

    plenty of people take measures to not be murdered, from avoiding crime ridden areas alone (permanently or at certain times of the day) to expensive alarm systems, from weapons of self defense to extensive training regiments, and sometime we even victim blame people for not doing anything ("i told them to not go there at night!"). we have people who get off of murder charges all the time, ranging from lack of evidence to outright skewed decisions of judges/juries with fucked upped trials or incompetent defenses, we have cases with corrupt cops and investigations gone awry, we have cases where it isn't clear if it was a response to willing violence (self defense) or completely unilaterally.

    are we part of a culture promoting murder?


  4. #154
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    just out of curiosity... does murder culture exists?

    plenty of people take measures to not be murdered, from avoiding crime ridden areas alone (permanently or at certain times of the day) to expensive alarm systems, from weapons of self defense to extensive training regiments, and sometime we even victim blame people for not doing anything ("i told them to not go there at night!"). we have people who get off of murder charges all the time, ranging from lack of evidence to outright skewed decisions of judges/juries with fucked upped trials or incompetent defenses, we have cases with corrupt cops and investigations gone awry, we have cases where it isn't clear if it was a response to willing violence (self defense) or completely unilaterally.

    are we part of a culture promoting murder?

    That plus popular culture glorifying murder, and I'd say yes, we do.

    (At the same time, I'm obligated to point out that that's a totally different conversation -- potentially a great topic for a new thread?)
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  5. #155
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Rape is wrong, mmmkay?
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    That plus popular culture glorifying murder, and I'd say yes, we do.

    (At the same time, I'm obligated to point out that that's a totally different conversation -- potentially a great topic for a new thread?)

    i was just trying to get a feel for the semantic of "[insert crime] culture". not trying to start a new debate.

    semantic aside, it would be hard to find anyone who doesn't think the phenomena of rape in itself is a problem, on a multitude of levels. that's being said, for those fighting against it, it would probably do some good in the gathering of support to remember it's a problem regardless of your gender, and to stop and think why.

    for instance, one case that probably happens to men more frequently then to women, is how we blindly accept prison rape. we do it without proportions. robbed a store? got dug in drugs? well then, we as a society will subject you to an environment where you'd unavoidably be beaten up and raped. is that proportional? we are aware of the fallability of trials even when we think we have all the evidence we need, and while some people fight to account for the implications of that in the most extreme of punishments (execution), there is little to none of that when it comes to prison. so we as a society declare, "what? we finally found out who planted the gun in your place? so we just accidently subjected you and allowed you to be rape again and again for years? oopsy!"... wrongful imprisonment = we've collectively aided in the rape of an innocent (ofcourse even that sentiment alone falls short by still allowing for the idea that rightful imprisonment somehow automatically makes you deserving of rape).

    unfortunately, remembering that has a downside:
    rape is sadly enough, one of the hardest thing for a prosecution to prove, since it can look very much like.. well, sex.
    so fighting for improved conviction rates for rapists puts a lot of pressure to make an exception to the need for proof.
    but if wrongful imprisonment for rape would in itself subject someone who didn't rape anyone to getting raped themselves...
    that creates a bit of a problem when the expectation is that "innocent until proven guilty" would be reversed for the case of rape.
    ofcourse, that's a problem men are a lot more likely to suffer from... so why have it stand in the way? fuck them.

  7. #157
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    #Noteveryprisoner

    Most men have to go to prison to be confronted with this fear every day - and it is actually recognised as a rational fear to have. I also wonder if we might actually be safer in women's prison - does anyone have the numbers on that?

    /devil's advocate

    Note: this isn't an argumentation against anything Mane said as I very much consider them valid, but I couldn't resist adding on for perspective *is so going to regret this*
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  8. #158
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Don't have time to deeply research it at the moment but a quick Google yielded this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_..._United_States

    A 1986 study by Daniel Lockwood put the number at around 23 percent for maximum security prisons in New York. Christine Saum's 1994 survey of 101 inmates showed 5 had been sexually assaulted.[9] Among women the number is one in forty and the offenders are more likely to be prison staff members.

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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post


    #Noteveryprisoner

    Most men have to go to prison to be confronted with this fear every day - and it is recognised as a rational fear. I also wonder if we might actually be safer in women's prison - does anyone have the numbers on that?

    /devil's advocate

    Note: this isn't an argumentation against anything Mane said as I very much consider them valid, but I couldn't resist adding on for perspective *is so going to regret this*
    nah, its a good point, though i was looking for the numbers and found this
    "More men raped in US than women when including prison rape"
    (unfortunately its the dailymail, which is not particularly well known for fact checking. if nobody else does it, i might dig for more information later).

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