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  1. #81
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Your response doesn't answer the questions; just more red herrings.
    It answers the questions better than your claim about "priorities", which frankly, seemed like such an obvious troll as to not merit any response at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Interesting article and good scientific point.
    Pro Tip:
    Just because it's quoted in "Science mag", doesn't make it "scientific".

  2. #82
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Pro Tip:
    Just because it's quoted in "Science mag", doesn't make it "scientific".

    And just because one uses the word "scientific", it doesn't necessarily mean "scientifically valid". It could just mean "related to science".

    I found it interesting especially in relation to environmental population dynamics, which I have studied in some depth; IMO, it's an interesting science-related observation. I don't think either of us has the knowledge or resources at hand to decide whether it is valid or not.

    sci·en·tif·ic
    ˌsīənˈtifik/
    adjective
    adjective: scientific

    based on or characterized by the methods and principles of science.
    "the scientific study of earthquakes"
    synonyms: technological, technical; More
    research-based, knowledge-based, empirical
    "scientific research"
    relating to or used in science.
    "scientific instruments"

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  4. #84
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    From last night's episode of ST: TNG on BBC America:

    Riker to Data: Do you consider yourself superior to humans?

    Data: I am superior in many ways.

    To pretend that Data isn't superior is just stupid. It'd be even more stupid to attempt to make unequal things equal.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  5. #85
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    From last night's episode of ST: TNG on BBC America:

    Riker to Data: Do you consider yourself superior to humans?

    Data: I am superior in many ways.

    To pretend that Data isn't superior is just stupid. It'd be even more stupid to attempt to make unequal things equal.
    In the eyes of the Christian God, we are all equal in the eyes of God. We have traslated this into our Common Law where we are all equal before the Court.

    On the other hand, in the eyes of the Islamic God, we are not equal, we are divided into a hierarchy with muslim men, at the top, then comes muslim women, then comes dhimmi (Jews and Christians), and at the bottom are infidels like Hindus. This is translated into Sharia Law where we are not all equal in a Sharia Court.

  6. #86
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole
    We have traslated this into our Common Law where we are all equal before the Court.
    I don't think anyone disagrees with this. What we're opposing are the silly social engineering laws like the progressive tax, welfare, affirmative action, and the minimum wage. They do reduce income inequality but at the expense of prosperity. The goal of public policy should be to reduce poverty rather than tear down the rich. It's a very simple point but a lesson that escapes the American left.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  7. #87
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I don't think anyone disagrees with this. What we're opposing are the silly social engineering laws like the progressive tax, welfare, affirmative action, and the minimum wage. They do reduce income inequality but at the expense of prosperity. The goal of public policy should be to reduce poverty rather than tear down the rich. It's a very simple point but a lesson that escapes the American left.
    The American Left are in a difficult position as they don't have a political party to represent them.

  8. #88
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    There are number of studies showing how social inequalities lead to crime, unstableness and decrease of quanlity of life, therefore it is beneficient to try iron out the inequalities, and countries have vastly varying levels of inequalities. It's insane to claim that Niger's level of social inequality is preferred to Sweden's level of social inequality. And Sweden still could be better. That's what we should be going towards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    If inequality is such a god-given fact of life, how come there are countries with a looot of it and others with relatively little of it? Also, those that have little of it also happen to be the ones with a high standard of living and high degrees of general happiness and satistaction with life among its population.
    The negative consequences of significant economic inequality are well documented, especially in comparisons like those referenced above, between nations with significant inequality and those will much less.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It doesn't mean we should stop advocating for better living conditions and less poverty.

    Saying that lower echelons will always exist and will always be the majority does not define their quality of life, and what we should be shooting for regardless of what SE class people are in is a decent living quality for all human beings. If anything, it's further evidence that all people should be supportive of raising the living standards of the majority. IMO this could probably happen with education, clean water, universal health care and an unconditional basic income (here for arguments that people would abuse the system).

    Of course, getting the upper SE levels to agree to sacrificing their resources to fuel that improvement is the hard part...
    I don't think there are any nations or societies with no income inequality, in other words where everyone earns the same, by any measure. Is the only way to ensure a decent quality of life for everyone to eliminate all income inequality? I haven't heard anyone call specifically for that, though I have seen comments to the effect that it would be impossible to achieve. Possible or no, would it even be desirable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I don't think anyone disagrees with this. What we're opposing are the silly social engineering laws like the progressive tax, welfare, affirmative action, and the minimum wage. They do reduce income inequality but at the expense of prosperity. The goal of public policy should be to reduce poverty rather than tear down the rich. It's a very simple point but a lesson that escapes the American left.
    Do the same measures that reduce income inequality also limit overall prosperity? In other words, if we try to divide the pie evenly, do we end up inevitably with a smaller pie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It answers the questions better than your claim about "priorities", which frankly, seemed like such an obvious troll as to not merit any response at all.
    You were as good as your word, then; can't argue with that. Fortunately for the discussion, others did not agree.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #89
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    Do the same measures that reduce income inequality also limit overall prosperity? In other words, if we try to divide the pie evenly, do we end up inevitably with a smaller pie?
    Yes. Look at Detroit. Look at the last 5 years under Obama's leftist policies. Remember to look at Seattle in 5 years (it just passed a $15/hour minimum wage).

    Whenever the government raises taxes to redistribute wealth or raises the minimum wage, we get greater inequality and more poor people. FDR raised taxes (tripled them) during the Great Depression and the economy never recovered. Under Obama's record spending, we have 47 million people on food stamps and the lowest labor participation rate in 30 years.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #90
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    And yet we are humans, capable of value judgement and of impacting the natural world. So we are left with the question "is what is natural necessarily what is good?"
    Value judgment and our degree of impact on the natural world aren't enough to overcome the foundation of nature: some thrive, some suffer. So long as resources are finite, there will be competition. And unless/until we become a hive mind with shared pain and experience, forcing those who gain the resources to have a personal and physical interest in the well-being of others, that competition will distribute the resources unevenly: more to the victors who control them and less to the losers who have to find other ways to negotiate access to those resources or find alternatives.

    Right and wrong doesn't change reality any more than us wanting things to be permanent changes the laws of entropy.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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