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  1. #21
    hypersane Hive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    "Inofficial leaders"?? Really? And who is supposed to control them?
    Why would they need to be controlled?

    The commune collectively decides how things should be run. All means of production are collectively owned. Money usually isn't part of a communist society, meaning nobody has a financial leverage over another, and all products are distributed among the commune according to need. The inofficial leaders would probably be the ones with organizational skills delegating the people. But no one has to obey authority. You serve the collective. One for all and all for one.
    I FEEL ALRIGHT

  2. #22
    Almöhi Stephano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    Why would they need to be controlled?
    Because, you know, there are not only extremely idealistic people out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    The commune collectively decides how things should be run.
    Which means? Are you going to ask 500 million people about every small regulation? The thought itself isn't bad. The Swiss have a direct democracy which more actively integrates people into politics, but they still need a parliament with "representatives" of the people.


    All means of production are collectively owned. Money usually isn't part of a communist society, meaning nobody has a financial leverage over another, and all products are distributed among the commune according to need. The inofficial leaders would probably be the ones with organizational skills delegating the people. But no one has to obey authority. You serve the collective. One for all and all for one.
    Yeah, but technically that means that these "inofficial leaders" would have absolute power over everything which is an inofficial dictatorship. You still need a police and military which the dictatorship will use to strengthen their authority. Even in a society without money you need some sort of payment or otherwise no one would go to work. Also, in such a large community people will ask themselves why they should work for people they don't even know.
    4w3 - 7w6 - 1w9 : The Idealist

  3. #23
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    I voted today. Felt pretty satisfied about the results for Germany as soon as they came in, but then I read about the current situation in France, and I don't know what to think of it. Considering how the French voted in the past (not that I'm any expert on this, just my general impression), they seem very clear about what they don't want (i.e. any present government), but it's not sure whether this is really an expression of their own position. I can hope that they've voted for the FN because they are so dissatisfied with Hollande, and not because they're that nationanlist (I mean - Le Pen - seriously??). It would seem daft to make that kind of statement, considering the people that might have been voted for in a fit of fury are sitting the European Parliament for the next couple of years. Still waiting for Britain and most other countires, too.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

    -τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ-

  4. #24
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I dont think it would be anti-democratic, its the extremist parties who are anti-democratic. I dont see how outlawing certain parties is anti-freedom, it is those parties which are against our freedoms which should be outlawed, and that includes the communists.

    Of course Im not opposed to the right to people to hold controversial opinions, or even to assemble in the name of controversial causes, simply we shouldnt be allwoed to vote for extemist, anti-freedom parties(Nazis, Communists, Islamists etc).

    Nationalism in Europe usually carries the stigma of xenophobia, racial hatred etc, though I dont think nationalism is the problem in itself, its more the things associated with it.
    Communists? Is this the 50s? I do not know where you come from, but I do not see any Communists. McCarthy, he saw Communists even under his bed. I voted the Left Alliance in the European Elections today. There is only one party in Europe with that name. Did I vote Communists?

    The danger in Europe today is not Communism, which does not exist, it is Nationalism and Libertarianism/Global Capitalism/Monetarism.

  5. #25
    Senior Member OptoGypsy's Avatar
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    Putin has blue balls since his bottom bitch is hiding.

  6. #26
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    I actually linked to a report on this in another thread. The results are indeed a great victory, the EU bureaucrats will be quaking in their boots lol, and it's amusing to see how everyone is downplaying it here. I was especially pleased to hear that only one feminist member had been elected. Finally people are showing some intelligence, but how long it will take to translate into a change in governance we shall see.

    Anyway I am in an unusually good mood, mustn't dampen it by talking too much.

  7. #27
    hypersane Hive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    Because, you know, there are not only extremely idealistic people out there.
    I don't understand.

    Which means? Are you going to ask 500 million people about every small regulation? The thought itself isn't bad. The Swiss have a direct democracy which more actively integrates people into politics, but they still need a parliament with "representatives" of the people.
    I'm pretty sure the idea is to split into smaller communes where such direct democracy is more easily managable.

    Yeah, but technically that means that these "inofficial leaders" would have absolute power over everything which is an inofficial dictatorship. You still need a police and military which the dictatorship will use to strengthen their authority. Even in a society without money you need some sort of payment or otherwise no one would go to work. Also, in such a large community people will ask themselves why they should work for people they don't even know.
    So if you have one guy delegating chores, "Bob, you plow the field, Larry, you milk the cows, and Jack, you chop the wood", that's absolute power and a dictatorship?

    The payment is that you get exactly what you require according to your needs and a high standard of living, because the resources are evenly distributed rather than a few people holding on to most of them. You work for each other because you're a small cog in a big machine and if you don't do your job, either the machinery stops or people won't feel like sharing the products of their labour because you're not contributing.
    I FEEL ALRIGHT

  8. #28
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    lol wtf christian democrats got so many seats

    I thought only mentally ill grannies votes for them, but judging from the seats they got, someone else must have voted for them as well
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  9. #29
    Senior Member Nara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Hatter View Post
    I voted today. Felt pretty satisfied about the results for Germany as soon as they came in, but then I read about the current situation in France, and I don't know what to think of it. Considering how the French voted in the past (not that I'm any expert on this, just my general impression), they seem very clear about what they don't want (i.e. any present government), but it's not sure whether this is really an expression of their own position. I can hope that they've voted for the FN because they are so dissatisfied with Hollande, and not because they're that nationanlist (I mean - Le Pen - seriously??). It would seem daft to make that kind of statement, considering the people that might have been voted for in a fit of fury are sitting the European Parliament for the next couple of years. Still waiting for Britain and most other countires, too.
    Hmmm Yes and no. This is not especially because of Hollande (even if he's a huge disappointment). In fact, whichever party is in power, it's basically the same policy which is pursued, simply because the real power is mostly held by the financial oligarchy and the global investment banks, so the political representatives are mostly interchangeable puppets...

    FN nationalism is just seen as a tempting option in order to protect the country from the offshoring, which the people is afraid of (unceasing increase in the plant closings). Not to mention that uncontrolled immigration here is a big problem because it leads to level down the wages.
    Anyway, people know the corruption within the political elite is inevitable, but besides that they just want to see some tangible changes. Hence the rise of FN.

    (/in a nutshell)
    To exist is to change, to change is to mature, to mature is to go on creating oneself endlessly.
    Henri Bergson

    C'est faux de dire: Je pense : on devrait dire : On me pense.
    It is wrong to say: I think. One should say: I am thought.
    Arthur Rimbaud

  10. #30
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    Wouldn't that be anti-democratic? I mean, if we stone the leftie-communists alongside, I'd be in.
    since when is this ok to say (out loud at least)?

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