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  1. #81
    Society
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    Although we are going to be in the minority here, in the right circumstances, physical discipline has been shown by MANY studies to create more well adjusted adults.

    When there's no consequence for a child's bad behavior (I don't personally think taking away an iPhone for a day is an appropriate consequence or punishment)there's a huge risk for spoiled brat syndrome.

    "My daddy used to tan my hide!" I don't personally think there's anything wrong with that, if the child is ultimately loved, and realizes this is punishment. And that's a far cry from straight up beating children.

    Quote from source: Physical Discipline

    "Previous research has found children are more likely to grow into well adjusted adults if their parents are firm disciplinarians.

    Traditional “authoritative” parenting, combining high expectations of behavior with warmth and sensitivity, leads to more “competent” children, according to the 2009 study by researchers from London's Institute of Education."
    jumped the "we" a bit early there buddy...

    restricting access (toys, tv, iPhone etc) doesn't fall under the ambrella of withholding reward from the child's point of view. it seems the same from the parent's point of view because your conscious that you are the one paying for it, but from the child's point of view it is part of what they already have - the punishment isn't not getting what they want, it's loosing freedom & being restricted. what i am talking about is when the punishment is withholding reward, training the child's subconscious to feel the lack of reward is a form of punishment, and thus feeling entitled to a reward if they feel like they met expectations.

  2. #82
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    jumped the "we" a bit early there buddy...
    Lol, yeah probably.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    just thinking out loud on why this might be the case:
    are white middle class families more likely to replace direct discipline (time out, restrictions, spanking, etc) with the use of money as their main parenting tool?

    it's a bit of throwing a dart in the dark here, but if a child grows up where the reward for positive behavior is getting what he wanted and the punishment for negative behavior is withholding it... you are essentially raising a child to feel that not getting what they want is a form of punishment... and in the video's he sounded just like that: "i keep doing all my homework and my chores, why is nobody taking me to disneyland?!"
    One could only speculate, but it definitely warrants further investigation. A lack of appropriate discipline could be a factor. Although it may be poltically correct to ignore trends among certain racial or socioeconomic demographics, it would be ignorant to do so.

    Just ask elder generations and they will tell you how different young people are today. Attitudes have changed and although it might make us feel better to attribute sole responsibility to these perpetrators (whom should incur the brunt of the blame), I don't think society as a whole should receive a full pardon. These patterns exist for a reason, and cultural ideals probably play a huge factor. What traits are men praised for? Dominating others, physically (in sports), economically, socially and sexually. Empathy and compassion among men is rarely portrayed as a "strength" in western society.

  4. #84
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    These patterns exist for a reason, and cultural ideals probably play a huge factor. What traits are men praised for? Dominating others, physically (in sports), economically, socially and sexually. Empathy and compassion among men is rarely portrayed as a "strength" in western society.
    When was this ever different?

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    One could only speculate, but it definitely warrants further investigation. A lack of appropriate discipline could be a factor. Although it may be poltically correct to ignore racial or socioeconomic trends involving crime, it would be ignorant to dismiss trends among certain demographics, racial or otherwise.

    Just ask elder generations and they will tell you how different young people are today. Attitudes have changed and although it might make us feel better to attribute sole responsibility to these perpetrators (whom should incur the blunt of the blame), I don't think society as a whole should receive a full pardon. These patterns exist for a reason, and cultural ideals probably play a huge factor. What traits are men praised for? Dominating others, physically (in sports), economically, socially a.d sexually. Empathy and compassion among men is rarely portrayed as a "strength" in western society.
    it's interesting thought, but i am doubtful: your current target in this and the previous posts (cultural expectations of males) falls short as an explanation for why the US produces more psychopaths or why it's more common in the middle class - far from a western attribute, the social standards for men are far less conservative & restrictive in the US when placed in comparison to much of the rest of the world, and they are usually more extreme in lower socioeconomic communities when compared to the middle class. the curves don't match.

    what i am wondering isn't about the lack of appropriate discipline so much as misleading form of discipline (punishment = withholding reward) which results in an entitled relationship with meeting social expectations.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    When was this ever different?
    Other cultures, particularly in the far east, from my understanding, don't embrace the hypermasculine image that the US has espoused. Gender norms have changed over time, as well.

  7. #87
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    Other cultures, particularly in the far east, from my understanding, don't embrace the hypermasculine image that the US has espoused. Gender norms have changed over time, as well.
    The image of men in different cultures is strikingly different. In Japan, there was a certain virility attached to being a samurai. Though I doubt this virility is anything like the western image of virility. In the odyssey, Ulysses, a brave warrior, not afraid of confronting death defying situations, is nevertheless protrayed as crying. All cultures have a concept of virility, but that concept is very different from culture to another. I would also argue some cultures have a superior concept of virility. For instace, cultures where men can express vulnerability are superior in that regard to cultures where men are supposed to repress it.

    But I meant more along the lines of gender norms actually softening up in US society today, compared to the days of John Wayne.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    Other cultures, particularly in the far east, from my understanding, don't embrace the hypermasculine image that the US has espoused. Gender norms have changed over time, as well.
    where are you getting that from? teenage boys in japan hold an incredibly high suicide rate for failing at school and thus as potential providers, chinese families put masculinity on enough of a pedestal to abort female babies in roves, india has one of the worst rape scenes in the world, in the middle east there are communities where you are not a man if you don't kill anyone for touching your female family members (and the female family members), in israel masculinity goes hand in hand with your military history... should i go on? it's not the same image, but each culture has it's own version of the hypermasculine image. in comparison the american one seems quite forgiving.

  9. #89
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    having been a 22 year old man in his exact same position...i can tell you it's about sex. at 22 i was a virgin...unsuccessful with women, the whole world seemingly hating me. women, men, everyone. it's so lonely..and it doesn't get better. 24 and i'm still lonely. i went through everyday just trying not to snap. the fact that some guys don't manage not to snap...i'm not surprised. it's a running theme with all these shooters...they were unsuccessful with the women in their lives, and socially ostracized because seemingly the way we act, who they were...isn't acceptable, or something.

    it's like...having your genes selected against. men want to pass on their genes because they won't be here anymore. it's a biological need. women making them unable to? well yes...people will die because of it. so, i'm not shocked or surprised. sad that people got in his way? yes. but...and hear this clear...the same thing will happen again, and again, and again...because that is how the world works. you either fuck, or you find yourself fucked. there's no two ways about this.

    who the fuck knows, but people get tired of trying to be a certain way and start hating people for trying to force things. i know because i've been motivated to do the exact same thing for the exact same reasons. having been on the brink, then brought back because i finally decided enough was enough and i was going to get laid somehow, from personal experience, it's about sex with young men.

    there is nothing that isn't about sex for young men. [edit]
    So if you turn a gay man who wants to have sex with you down, it's essentially your fault if his sexual frustration motivates him to go on a shooting rampage?
    Last edited by Bellflower; 05-30-2014 at 10:46 AM. Reason: Quote edit
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #90
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    The only valid points in that article is that men not getting sex, can result in disharmony.

    Doesn't really need to be said, as it's already been said, but fuck it, it's still not a "right."
    If one agrees that men not getting sex results in disarmony and that, in principle, it's everyone's duty to keep society cohesive, then it's perfectly possible to defend that sex is a right of sorts. Doesn't have to be free of costs though. Ultimately, it usually isn't.

    I'm a lawyer, ya know.

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