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  1. #351
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Fortunately mass shooters are relatively rare.
    Yes, gun massacres in the USA are relatively rare, but each one is flashed around the world by the electronic media. So all of us experience the shock, horror and grief of each gun massacre.

    And we know this is a never ending horror, as we know from experience that the next one will be quite soon.

    So we live in expectation of the shock, horror and grief of the next gun massacre in the USA, even though they are relatively rare.

    So gun massacres in the USA are relatively rare in number but each one resonates around the world.

    And although each one is relatively rare, they form a continuous drumbeat of horror, shock and grief.

  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Yes, gun massacres in the USA are relatively rare, but each one is flashed around the world by the electronic media. So all of us experience the shock, horror and grief of each gun massacre.

    And we know this is a never ending horror, as we know from experience that the next one will be quite soon.

    So we live in expectation of the shock, horror and grief of the next gun massacre in the USA, even though they are relatively rare.

    So gun massacres in the USA are relatively rare in number but each one resonates around the world.

    And although each one is relatively rare, they form a continuous drumbeat of horror, shock and grief.
    Please take responsibility for your own media consumption.

  3. #353
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Yes, gun massacres in the USA are relatively rare, but each one is flashed around the world by the electronic media. So all of us experience the shock, horror and grief of each gun massacre.

    And we know this is a never ending horror, as we know from experience that the next one will be quite soon.

    So we live in expectation of the shock, horror and grief of the next gun massacre in the USA, even though they are relatively rare.

    So gun massacres in the USA are relatively rare in number but each one resonates around the world.

    And although each one is relatively rare, they form a continuous drumbeat of horror, shock and grief.
    And to think: before technological developments permitted all this, we had to content ourselves with reading about violence in fiction and historical accounts. Thank heavens for folks like Genghis Khan.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    The disease is a lone kid that was a perfect storm of self-entitlement, misogyny, aspergers, parents throwing money at him to fix it, along with a father that wasn't around much and a mother that didn't know the meaning of the word, "discipline."

    I think this is a pretty isolated incident. Not of misogyny [alone] but of all those factors above combined to create the horror that happened.

    Honestly, how many lone mass shooters have done something like this because "I just don't understand why these girls are repulsed by me"? I ask because I don't think it's many, and because I actually don't know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Fortunately mass shooters are relatively rare. Acknowledging that this fellow was mentally ill does not negate the role of misogyny. The two causes are not mutually exclusive. The U.S. certainly has its share of misogynists, but even the hard-core among them do not go around shooting up random folks, most of whom aren't even women. We also have the occasional mass shooting/violence, but not all are targeted at women. I seem to remember the Columbine killers going after people who were Christian, for instance. It seems easy for someone who is mentally ill to tap into the prevailing veins of delusion and dissatisfaction in society - whether that be misogyny, racism, gay-bashing, or anything else. Put another way, in a world without gender bias, I suspect this shooter would have just found another axe to grind, and channelled his narcissism in that direction.

    Yeah, to be more clear, I meant misogyny was a part of it. Just like, as you mentioned, Christian hating or whatever with the Columbine incident (I still remember when that happened, it was like the first one, it wasn't commonplace like it is now (relatively)).

    Well put, it's like first there's the insanity, for whatever reason, and then it's directed at a group.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

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    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    And to think: before technological developments permitted all this, we had to content ourselves with reading about violence in fiction and historical accounts. Thank heavens for folks like Genghis Khan.
    Could Genghis Khan exist in a time of electronic media? Well yes, we had Adolf, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot in a time of electronic media - but they restricted the electric media and caught us by surprise.

    Perhaps our first war in the glare of the electronic media was the Vietnam war. It was our first television war. And Vietnam was not lost on the battleground, it was lost on TV.

    And of course we learnt to manage the electric media in Iraq and Afganistan.

    And the simple statistical fact is that the incidence of war is reducing quite substantially under the eye of the electric media.

    I don't think Genghis Khan would play well on live television.

  6. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Please take responsibility for your own media consumption.
    This is an interesting comment.

    It is alike asking someone to not listen to you while you are talking to them. It's not possible. It is in the nature of the medium of sound that it is ubiquitous. And in like manner, it is in the nature of the electric medium that it is ubiquitious.

    And not only is the electric medium ubiquitous but the electric medium shares feeling globally in real time.

    So we all now feel the same things at the same time, just like a traditional tribe.

    Only we are the electronic tribe in the global village.

  7. #357
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And the simple statistical fact is that the incidence of war is reducing quite substantially under the eye of the electric media.
    In some sense, perhaps. I wonder, though, whether a higher proportion of those killed now are civilian noncombatants, relative to WWII or Vietnam. I don't have the data at my fingertips to support or refute; perhaps someone else does.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I didn't intend to misrepresent you. Edited.
    Not that it matters in the least, but women's avg IQ overtook men's a few years back, just ftr.


    Some more thoughts on why this incident qualifies as Hate Crime/Terrorism and why Hate Crime != Thought Crime.

    I will allow someone with a better grasp of US culture than I to make the argument. Because I tend to forget that what's considered axiomatic or intuitively understood in most of the enlightened world is sometimes still up for debate in 'murca.
    Also, laziness.
    Moral Considerations on Hate Crimes, Free Speech, and Threatening Speech
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fincke
    First of all, thought is important to crime. While sometimes gross negligence or culpable forms of ignorance are unforgivably harmful and worth criminally punishing, merely accidentally or unwittingly harming someone is quite different than intentionally doing so. And premeditated harmful actions are even worse than ones chosen in the heat of an intense moment. The thought itself, in isolation, is not what is being punished. The thought however is a germane part of a complex event that includes an action. It is an insufficient but (usually) necessary condition for a crime.

    But the next question the opponent of hate crime legislation might ask is, “why should the hatred of a group of people specifically be the kind of thought that gets punished and not just the intention to commit the crime? Sure, we can judge someone for the thought of wanting to inflict criminal harm that contributes to their actual attempt to inflict criminal harm, but why is their hatred itself an issue? Presumably someone could be horrifyingly indifferent and intend to inflict criminal harm and the motive to inflict criminal harm combined with the attempt to do so is all that matters. Why should hatred be punished more than, say, callous disregard?”

    To that, I answer that it should not really [be] the hatred of the perpetrator that is at stake here, even though we call them “hate crimes”. Morally you should be allowed to hate all you want without the law intervening, even if morally you also should not hate in the first place the majority of cases. What is really at stake in hate crimes, morally, is the fact that criminals who choose their victims based to one extent or another on their group membership aims at and/or has the effect of significantly harming more people than merely the direct victim(s). When the KKK threateningly burns crosses on a black family’s lawn or lynches a particular black person, they are effectively terrorizing black people everywhere, and especially all black people within reach of the KKK. That’s not to say that all blacks are terrified by the actions but that it’s, objectively, a terrorizing kind of act. Morally speaking, hate crimes are really a subspecies of the broader category of crime known as terrorism.

    This is why it is so ironic that most people who reject the very existence of hate crimes are people on the political right and are the most likely people to make arguments that terrorism be treated as so especially heinous a crime that it be considered an act of war or cause for punishment by torture or death without any due process rights. The 9/11 hijackers did not just commit offenses against the people they killed on the airplanes, in the Pentagon, or the World Trade Center. They terrorized millions, perhaps even billions, of people. Were they alive that should surely be taken into consideration at a trial assessing what was wrong with what they did.

    Singling out a person because they belong to a certain group sends the message to others of that group that people in the culture hate them enough to attack them on the basis of their belonging to that group. That threatens their ability to feel safe in society. This is why deliberate perpetrators of hate crimes and terrorism do what they do. They want to send that message. But even if they have no grandiose designs of reaching beyond the one person they’re “teaching a lesson to” or “ridding the world of” or “putting in their place”, etc., they can have that effect if a reasonable case can be shown that bias based on their perception of the other’s group identification played a role in their reasoning. That effectively sends the signal to members of that group that the bias out there against them is so strong that it just might have violent realizations and that makes them, to one degree or another, also victims of that crime to take into account.

    Of course, hate crime legislation should never make expression of mere opinions into a crime. But also not all statements are expressions of opinions. Some are threats and free speech, neither morally nor legally, should not cover threats that name particular individuals as targets for violence nor name particular identity-groups as targets for violence. I don’t think that a threat should be “credible” (in the lay sense of likely to be followed up) for it to be considered at minimum immoral and bannable by all responsible private spaces, including websites. And I think that severe, direct threats of rape and murder should be considered crimes in themselves, whether the person has any intention to follow through.
    This sort of speech does not constitute the expression of ideas. Not all speech acts are declarative statements about the world. Some perform actions inherently. These kinds of statements perform the actions of trying to threaten and intimidate and force compliance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #359
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Confessions Of A Former Misogynist | Purely a figment of your imagination

    This is going out to the Cookie Monster. And to all the people who are feeling depressed and hopeless about the contagion of woman-hating out there. Because misogyny is a disease that can be cured. But only when we stop ignoring it.

    Just as a cloudy lining to this bit of uncharacteristic silveriness, it's interesting that this reformed misogynist predicts that, had his awakening not taken place before the age of social media, it probably wouldn't have happened at all, given how the comparative isolation of someone with extremist views might force them to examine their poisonous ideology in a way that is no longer necessary, now that such people find easy reinforcement for their seething rage and resentment in the plethora of PUA, MRA and antifeminist "support groups" that the technology has facilitated. That's why the "freedom of speech" argument should never be abused to permit the proliferation of such threats. They are a contagion and as such require quarantine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #360
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    First Amendment:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[1]

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