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  1. #301
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Oh, so it's the name now, not the skin color? Then I guess Elliot Rodger doesn't qualify either because of his name. Group him up with Dorner as non-whites (skin too dark to benefit from white privilege) who went on rampages but weren't investigated as terrorists.
    Ah, look at you. Two for two. Continuing to be pedantic and obtuse when interpreting what I originally meant because I didn't add a whole list of qualifiers as to what demographic I was talking about, when I put "brown" and "terrorist" together.

    First in the other thread, then again here.

    I'm sure you'll deny the existence of Islamophobia just as you did rape culture.

    Must be blissful, your state of mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    It is weird that Americans would be quick to label Muslims that kill masses of innocent people as "Terrorists" considering that, historically, they usually ARE connected to Islamic Extremist cells or Extremist Teachings.

    I mean, where would they get such a crazy idea?
    Nice and slow:

    The original point referred to why such men were termed "terrorists" (or, cleared of the default assumption of the term, "terrorists"), yet white men in America, who don't happen to be of some "exotic" religious affiliation, such as Islam, who kill in the name of misogyny (or any other hate crimes targeting a group of people) were not termed terrorists, but concluded to be a lone madman.

    Even slower:

    The term, terrorist, for the vast majority of people in America, equals, Islamic extremists.

    Slowest:
    Why isn't this guy, and others of his ilk, being referred to as a terrorist, as well?

    I'd go even slower, but that would mean....

  2. #302
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Nice and slow:

    The original point referred to why such men were termed "terrorists" (or, cleared of the default assumption of the term, "terrorists"), yet white men in America, who don't happen to be of some "exotic" religious affiliation, such as Islam, who kill in the name of misogyny (or any other hate crimes targeting a group of people) were not termed terrorists, but concluded to be a lone madman.
    Even slower:

    The term, terrorist, for the vast majority of people in America, equals, Islamic extremists.

    Slowest:
    Why isn't this guy being referred to as a terrorist, as well?
    It depends on how you define "Terrorist." There isn't one universally accepted definition.

    ter·ror·ism
    noun
    2.
    the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.


    By this definition, he is, and so is anyone who commits murder in the name of misogyny.

    ter·ror·ism
    noun
    1.
    the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.


    This definition, Rodgers didn't have a political purpose, so he isn't.



    "Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

    • Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;

    •Appear intended
    (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
    (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
    (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and

    • Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.


    This definition, Rodgers, not a terrorist.

    And btw, Timothy McVeigh, lone white man, universally accepted as a terrorist.

    I'm curious how your own country defines terrorism.

    And please, continue to go slow, it's always difficult to make sense of people who are already bigoted against America and like to nitpick over semantics.
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  3. #303
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    "Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

    • Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;

    •Appear intended
    (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
    (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
    (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and

    • Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.


    This definition, Rodgers, not a terrorist.
    How did you reach that conclusion? To me it seems pretty clear from his own words that he fits this definition to a T:

    I will punish all females for the crime of depriving me of sex. They have starved me of sex for my entire youth, and gave that pleasure to other men. In doing so, they took many years of my life away. I cannot kill every single female on earth, but I can deliver a devastating blow that will shake all of them to the core of their wicked hearts.
    Note that the (i) (ii) (iii) sections are divided by an OR, not an AND. It is not necessary for him to be trying to influence government policy or affect the conduct of a government to meet the criteria for domestic terrorism. He was certainly trying to intimidate a civilian population.

  4. #304
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Also, you seem to be interpreting the "especially" in the second definition as an "only." Political purpose isn't necessary to any of those definitions of terrorism. To my eye he meets all three.

  5. #305
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Ah, look at you. Two for two. Continuing to be pedantic and obtuse when interpreting what I originally meant because I didn't add a whole list of qualifiers as to what demographic I was talking about, when I put "brown" and "terrorist" together.

    First in the other thread, then again here.

    I'm sure you'll deny the existence of Islamophobia just as you did rape culture.

    Must be blissful, your state of mind.
    Islamophobia is real thing, but what does that have to do with Elliot Rodger? You've really gone off the rails here.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #306
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Also, you seem to be interpreting the "especially" in the second definition as an "only." Political purpose isn't necessary to any of those definitions of terrorism. To my eye he meets all three.
    Anything can be labeled terrorism these days. Environmental vandalism is "terrorism" in 2014. I'm sure people will eventually get their wish and people like Elliot Rodger will be labeled a terrorist by the government. That will give government the authority to start invading our privacy even more. Hooray!
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #307
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    "Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

    • Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;

    •Appear intended
    (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
    (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
    (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and

    • Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    How did you reach that conclusion? To me it seems pretty clear from his own words that he fits this definition to a T:

    Note that the (i) (ii) (iii) sections are divided by an OR, not an AND. It is not necessary for him to be trying to influence government policy or affect the conduct of a government to meet the criteria for domestic terrorism. He was certainly trying to intimidate a civilian population.
    There's only an "or" for (ii) and (iii), not (i). This is from the FBI. For THIS definition "(i)" and both or one of (ii),(iii) must be met.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Also, you seem to be interpreting the "especially" in the second definition as an "only." Political purpose isn't necessary to any of those definitions of terrorism. To my eye he meets all three.
    You're right, he could be considered a terrorist under this one. Definitely the first one:
    ter·ror·ism
    noun
    2.
    the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.


    But not the FBI definition. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just, by these definitions.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

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  8. #308
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    "Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

    • Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;

    •Appear intended
    (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
    (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
    (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and

    • Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.




    There's only an "or" for (ii) and (iii), not (i). This is from the FBI. For THIS definition "(i)" and both or one of (ii),(iii) must be met.



    You're right, he could be considered a terrorist under this one.
    I don't think you're right about the or. It's a series, there wouldn't be an "or" after the first item. There's no "and" after the first bullet point, either, but it's clear in context that to meet the definition an item from each bullet point must be met.

  9. #309
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I'm not really invested in characterizing him as a terrorist- it's not that meaningful a term anymore. I write and edit that kind of stuff (meaning bullet points and series, not definitions of terrorism, lol) for a living so my OCD couldn't leave it alone.

    I do hope we can all agree he was a tremendous piece of shit, if not a terrorist.

  10. #310
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't think you're right about the or. It's a series, there wouldn't be an "or" after the first item. There's no "and" after the first bullet point, either, but it's clear in context that to meet the definition an item from each bullet point must be met.
    Ok, but the syntax is clear to me, but for further explanation:

    Title 22, Chapter 38 of the United States Code (regarding the Department of State)

    "Definitions ... the term 'terrorism' means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;"


    Also worth quoting: "There is neither an academic nor an international legal consensus regarding the definition of the term terrorism. Various legal systems and government agencies use different definitions."
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

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