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  1. #211
    Senior Member Nara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Interesting. My initial thought was the exact opposite: He's a symptom of a generation that is obsessed with individualism. Spoiled entitled little brats who think everybody is a special little snowflake that the world owes happiness.
    Depends on your definition of individualism.
    I think you're talking about self-obsession and narcissism.

    But if she means he was seriously lacking in independent thought to question appropriately the defective values of the society he lived in, in order to find his own rules, then he wasn't truly an individualist but just another brain-washed teenager suffering from delusion. And I'd agree.

    It's just that the word individualism has been completely distorted.
    To exist is to change, to change is to mature, to mature is to go on creating oneself endlessly.
    Henri Bergson

    C'est faux de dire: Je pense : on devrait dire : On me pense.
    It is wrong to say: I think. One should say: I am thought.
    Arthur Rimbaud

  2. #212
    hypersane Hive's Avatar
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    He showed such incapacity to understand the basics of human relationships that I strongly doubt his attitude was just the product of culture. The root of the problem was in this kid's brain structure.
    I FEEL ALRIGHT

  3. #213
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    yes, let's give people 24 hours to commit their crimes before reporting them.

    from abc news
    Wow
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  4. #214
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    God help me but i read most of his manifesto. i'll say this: i think his parents did care but they were not very effective parents. the father sounds like he wasn't around much as he was always working or out of town and the mother indulged the kid like crazy. his mom allowed him to play his stupid violent video game up to 14 hours a day at one point. he really disliked his stepmom, who did seem a little harsh at times, because she *horrors* gave him chores to do and actually limited his time on his video games. the parents threw lots of money at the kid and just sent him to therapists who obviously weren't helping him at all. a couple years ago his father gave him a book to read he thought might help him. what book you ask? the secret. that kind of says it all and when he's completely coming unraveled mommy buys him his beamer. oh, and there were lots of (entertainment) industry parties the family went to. the one thing that seemed to help him was when he did building/construction work with one of his dad's friends on the man's house. i think what he really needed was a strong father figure and for his parents not to indulge him so much and give him some solid direction/guidance. at one point i guess they were trying to actually give him some discipline and shipped him off to live in morocco with his stepmom. weird. he cried to his mom on the phone and she flew out and brought him back home.

    What, a pussy.

    But one his parents created by spoiling the ever living shit out of him, father not being there for a role model, and letting him get away with murder (oops).

    I can't believe you read that whole thing, haha.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  5. #215
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    This guy has the story of my life. SOME PEOPLE DO HAVE THESE ISSUES.

    I didn't kill anyone though.
    I do feel his pain, but its not a reason to kill anyoone, including yourself.

  6. #216
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    He showed such incapacity to understand the basics of human relationships that I strongly doubt his attitude was just the product of culture. The root of the problem was in this kid's brain structure.
    Not necessarily his brain structure.

    It could just be that our socety doesnt teach us these things, it took me awhile to give up superficial judgemtns in favor of understanding healthy relationships, our society is incredibly superficial and teaches only about looks, status, etc. How could someone understand if noone explains it to them? Parents cant always explain these things, teenagers dont listen to their parents because their parents are 'uncool' comapred to other kids' judgement.

    Hes a charicature of all the false values our contemporary society worhsips.

    And now society has paid for it.

  7. #217
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    'The virgin killer'

    I think it would be productive to assign a silly name to all the serial killers. No narcissistic person would ever want that destiny.

    I doubt he was a psychopath. A psycho would probably resort to rape, whereas a narcissist would be too proud for that (a guy with npd would expect women to throw themselves at him; the opposite would be humiliating)
    I don't think the desire to hurt was the starting point; he felt victimized and unprivileged, and instead of addressing his hurt in a way that still respected others as individuals, he chose to cultivate his rage over some years until finally he felt strong enough to hurt others in what amounted to a series of blitz attacks. At that point in time, yes, he had reduced Others to non-entities; he was really the only person in the world that existed or who had needs that mattered; he was lost in his own solipsistic haze; but that's a little different from a psychopath who seems to like to hurt people simply because they exist and he's curious about what the experience is like and naturally objectifies them.

    Even at the end, Elliot still seems merely a boy (not an alpha male) who never matured, using cultivated rage and purchased power in a final flame-out to punish everyone who he felt had deprived and ridiculed him. The very act only reinforced what he wasn't and hurt so many other people in the process.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #218
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    What really struck me was that I don't think he once mentions approaching a woman. He says a lot of things like "women would laugh at me if I approached them" but as far as I can tell, he never tested that theory. Except by trying to push them off a balcony. He seemed extraordinarily passive about everything- he should just be rich but menial jobs were beneath him (but his mom was supposed to marry a rich dude so he could be rich like he deserved), and he should be able to have sex but approaching women for that purpose was out of the question.

  9. #219
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    What really struck me was that I don't think he once mentions approaching a woman. He says a lot of things like "women would laugh at me if I approached them" but as far as I can tell, he never tested that theory. Except by trying to push them off a balcony. He seemed extraordinarily passive about everything- he should just be rich but menial jobs were beneath him (but his mom was supposed to marry a rich dude so he could be rich like he deserved), and he should be able to have sex but approaching women for that purpose was out of the question.
    I'd have to look through the whole manifesto to be sure about whether he ever tried, but he seemed very much to be a terrified boy who thought he should be respected and recognized and loved without ever engaging someone -- that people would pursue him. I can understand why people are saying he was "over-mothered". Very very passive, scared to take actual risk, and even the potential whiff of rejection was enough to dissaude him from trying and then becoming bitter about it. Expected people to read his mind, and he didn't have to do the work to put himself out there, struggle through ambiguities, take risks, meet someone in the middle.

    Just like a little boy who needs others to look after him.

    Check this out:

    The “pretty blonde girl” blamed by Santa Barbara murderer Elliot Rodger for his violent misogyny is “devastated” and living in fear, her father said Monday.

    “The whole thing is so creepy,” the protective dad shuddered, saying he fears a “copycat” killer will now target his daughter. “It’s scary. Even though he’s gone.”

    Rodger, 22, pinpointed his Woodland Hills, Calif., middle school crush as the person who triggered the rage that ultimately drove him to murder six people and wound 13 others in a horrifying rampage Friday night.

    The Daily News is withholding the young woman’s name.

    “She must have thought I was an ultimate loser,” Rodger wrote in the 137-page manifesto he emailed to his parents and two dozen others before embarking on the death spree.

    “I hated her so much, and I will never forget her,” the virgin college student recounted. “I started to hate all girls because of this. I saw them as mean, cruel and heartless creatures that took pleasure from my suffering.”

    The woman’s father said it was Saturday morning when his 20-year-old daughter realized Rodger had made her part of his sick story.

    “She’s devastated by this,” the dad said in a phone interview. “She doesn’t even remember this guy. . . . She’s always been the most delicate kid you’d ever want to meet. For him to call her a bully, this kid was really disillusioned.

    “She was 10 years old,” the dad added. “He was two years older than her. He was in my son’s class. She was in the seventh grade and he was in eighth grade. . . . Can you imagine a 10-year-old kid bullying a 12-year-old? This little, petite girl bullying him?”

    Rodger called the young woman an ‘evil b---h’ in his manifesto. Facebook Rodger gunned down two blond sorority sisters, possibly in anger at the woman above, who he named in his manifesto. YouTube Rodger also claimed the woman teased an ridiculed him when they were in school together years earlier.

    In his screed, Rodger called his crush an “evil bitch” who “teased and ridiculed” him and “wounded me deeply...”
    Woman 'devastated' to be named by Santa Barbara shooter Elliot Rodger as motivation for killing spree, dad says - NY Daily News


    Yeah, middle school sucks. I have no clue what the actual events that happened were... but the huge majority of people get some perspective. He was obviously already a fragile individual even at that point in time.

    She doesn't even remember who he was.

    ---

    And then there is this:

    The deranged 22-year-old behind a Santa Barbara killing spree fantasized about a global takeover, a friend says.

    After watching the movie “Chronicle” with a group of friends, Elliot Rodger announced he wanted to “dominate the world,” friend Andi Chan told ABC News.

    “We all thought he was insane, but we were used to it,” Chan said in the interview. “Maybe in his mind he really wanted to do that.”

    The 2012 sci-fi flick tells the story of a bullied teen who discovers superpowers and is ultimately destroyed by them when he grows vengeful and violent.
    Read more: Friend: Santa Barbara killer Elliot Rodger wanted to ‘dominate the world' - NY Daily News

    Yeah, the movie's basically the story of three friends who gets superpowers but centers around one boy whose father abuses him and his mom, and he's felt powerless and invisible/shunned for much of his life. Gaining amazing telekinetic abilities is a chance for him to stop being a victim and finally get back at everyone who has ever hurt him + even people are symbolic of those people who hurt him. He's just full of rage.

    The movie can become a "power fulfillment fantasy" for victims who feel powerless.

    From the same article:

    ...Much of Rodger’s loneliness was of his own making, said Chan, who’d been his friend for more than two years.

    “Me and my friends tried to help him,” Chan told ABC News. “He doesn’t like to talk or hang out.”

    The sullen loner was depressing to be around when he did join the guys, and his complaints were often the same.

    “He asked why the world is unfair to him. ‘I’m a good looking guy. Why do girls like ugly, fat guys?’” Chan told ABC News. “I told him appearance wasn't everything.”
    He had support and people who stuck with him and tried to give him other options; but he wanted revenge, not change.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #220
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I honestly found reading through the manifesto quite...unnerving.

    Not because of his thoughts, but because of the revelation that I have been in a similar mind-set when I was younger. I'm still a virgin even now at 25, but I long ago realised that it was better to let relations unfold naturally in interaction and take the risks that this involved, than stew and expect others to make the effort. Self-responsibility is a hard lesson and I can't help but wonder if this individual had taken steps to absorb self-responsibility into himself, rather than imploding into a deluded viewpoint about others. Which isn't to say we don't all have our delusions, but I would hazard it is a degree.

    Also he clearly did have some difficulties, but how many were external and how many were brought on internally through his perception of the external, (and therefore his interaction with it), is up for debate.

    In the case of virginity, I think there is a cultural outlook in many cases where it is seen as an obstacle to be overcome, rather than a byproduct of trying to engage in meaningful relations. It's not something that should be considered a stigma in my view, but of course it's obvious I would see it that way. In the case of sex and people's bodies...no one owes you anything.
    Last edited by Cellmold; 05-29-2014 at 01:38 PM.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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