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  1. #131
    Senior Member wildflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleV View Post
    I have a few friends who have graduated from there... and two friends currently there for biology and psychology Ph.D programs. I know it's very chaotic there right now...

    My ILI-Te friend: "Another shooting, this time at UCSB. It's not because of the bullying, it's not a misogynist entitlement to women mentality, it's not a privileged thing. All those things aren't good but they are just symptoms of the main problem. There is an extreme lack of mental health advocacy in our society in the U.S. I watched 30 seconds of one of his vlogs and the guy was deeply, deeply, depressed. He should have been saying those things in therapy but apparently didn't get much treatment. If he did, it was too little too late. People are afraid to go to therapy (for many reasons) BUT most of us don't know how to help a troubled person get help. His twisted thinking is rooted in other problems that were obviously never fully addressed in therapy. It doesn't matter what those problems were, it could have been one traumatic incident, could have been a bunch that led to his recent state of mind. Some people are just born with bad wiring, others get messed up through a series of events growing up. The thing is when we run into people like that we all go "Wtf is up with that guy?! He's weird, let's stay away". Or "That guy is a misogynist!" or "That guy is a liberal/conservative" or whatever. Place whatever label that feels right to you and move on. And THAT only makes the problem worse. He committed a horrible crime, I'm not trying to absolve him of any responsibility, but I think we need to learn that when someone that could have been helped slips through the cracks, it's not just that person's fault. It's everyone's fault. Or at the very least, everyone pays for it when someone does slips through the cracks. These cracks aren't small, they're huge and we just pay no attention to them. We could all be looking out for one another more, trying to get someone the help they need before they do something terrible."
    lack of therapy was not the issue in this case. from CNN:

    Rodger had been seeing therapists on and off since he was 8, according to Astaire. He went to high school in Van Nuys, California, and met with a therapist "pretty much every day," Astaire said.

    Before his death, Rodger was seeing two therapists, Astaire added. "(Rodger) has always been going to see someone," he said, describing him as "reserved to a daunting degree."

  2. #132
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    lack of therapy was not the issue in this case:
    I'll inform my friend; however, finding the right one is crucial. Some may prolong issues for financial gain. There are many factors, and many are to blame. If it's just him, these things wouldn't happen in the US to this degree.

    Edit: Someone else already did.

  3. #133
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    Some other things from the Facebook discussion:

    ILI-Te: "Thats unfortunate. Well, like I said, too little, too late. Maybe he should have went to therapy sooner, it doesnt say how long he had been going. The parents just noticed this in the past 2 weeks because of his youtube vids? Guess they havent been paying close enough attention to him his whole life then. Depression like that generally doesnt happen overnight, unless he had some kind of rare brain tumor or something. Someone should have noticed the treatment wasnt going well. The officers obviously did not handle things correctly when getting tipped off by the parents and social worker that something was wrong. They either didnt take it seriously enough or arent fully trained in being able to determine the level of the threat. Either way, it's again due to an overall lack of awareness of mental health issues in society."

    His friend: "Sometimes depression comes out in ways that are atypical of the usual signs people think of. I still went the places I was supposed to, like school and friends houses, and such. But even into my teens and adulthood, my depression tended to manifest more as anger and hostility. I usually kept it reigned in, so it was only seen as an angry outburst or, in childhood, temper tantrums. Even now, if my meds are adjusted or no longer work as well, I can get those outbursts. I function OK, and most people are unaware I am depressed. But it's there, overshadowing everything I do and invading even my dreams/nightmares. I have no plans of destruction for myself or anyone else - don't call the cops on me! I'm just trying to point out that crying, withdrawal, and obvious lack of interest in things may not be shown to anyone. Some people can hide their depression well, especially if they think they will be shunned or be put under the microscope."

    Counselor friend: " I just want to throw this in as counselor...yes, every study shows that meds + therapy = best outcome...BUT what many people do not realize is that not therapeutic techniques work for everyone and most professionals have a theoretical "leaning" that they base their sessions with their clients on to help. Not everyone responds well to every technique, which leads to people trying therapy once (or even twice) and deeming it useless as a concept. Think of it this way, if you don't like your doctor, you keep trying to find one you click with, right? Why people do not do that with therapists is baffling to me. Additionally, not all therapists are created equal. Some are knowledgable and awesome, while others got their 2.0 in school, do the bare minimum, and don't care about the potential harm they are doing. It is going to take public awareness to completely remove e stigma, but there also have to be higher standards to do therapy. The words "counselor" and "therapist" are not protected by law. I cannot go around calling myself a doctor, lawyer, or police officer because i am not any of those things. Anyone can call him/herself that. Also, a lot of states have very lax licensing laws, so quality of care is lacking. It is going to take a major over haul of the system and delivery to see real change."

    " ": "Yes, [ILI-Te], you're right, but the awareness should come with the knowledge that you can change your therapist if s/he isn't working for you.bi also think that psychotropic meds should not be prescribed by just any MD. I know someone that gets hers from her OBGYN and without therapy. She thinks because she wasn't told to go to someone else and has endless refills that the pill is magic and she doesn't need anything else. The medical community needs to take some of the blame too since so many powerful psych meds are prescribed like Tic Tacs instead of possibly getting to the root of the issues. Yes, many people have imbalances. I am not saying to not have meds, but some people really don't need them or would do much better therapy alone or coupled with the meds."

    " ": " I understand [his friend]! Politicians and businesses (i.e insurance companies) make the rules. I know in many states that the public system and some insurance companies will pay for someone to see a SOCIAL WORKER, not a counselor or psychologist. Social workers have VERY different training. I don't try to do social work and social workers (unless LCSW) should not be doing counseling. I could rant all day long about that subject, but apparently the couple of counseling classes they get are sufficient and the training I have is too expensive for the people to benefit from, so it's off to social workers who usually don't know their ass from Freud with clients not knowing that their "therapist" is not well trained..."

    Nurse friend: "Can I just totally, unabashedly agree with [his friend] and [his friend]? From a nursing perspective, mental health issues... that's NEVER easy to deal with when dealing with an inpatient. Technically, they are only with me for their main physical issue and then out they go.
    Sadly, these patients often come to me (oncology nurse) with cancer, on top of their mental health issues that have often been self treated with alcohol/drugs... Sometimes this self treatment and/or their at risk lifestyles are the indirect result into why our paths cross.
    I can't help but have some serious empathy, because finding out you have cancer on top of whatever else you're struggling with is no joke! We're also not perfect! Understaffing makes therapeutic interactions hard to come by, sometimes.
    I go out of my way to help these patients and beg to have them started on some meds and appointments made to follow up with a psychologist/psychiatrist.
    I'd be a rich lady if I got a dollar everytime they came back to me off those meds and not having followed up.
    Lack of resources are a huge factor... Financially and just support system wise... It's very sad to see. We NEVER have enough beds to transfer a person to an inpt psych facility in a timely manner... It can take weeks or more.
    These people are someone's son or daughter and do deserve our most basic respect as a fellow human at the very least, despite their behaviors that may make them difficult to be around.
    They, like others who are sometimes in other ways handicapped, deserve more from us as a society.
    I wish things could change... But, I don't see it happening for a long time. Bless social workers and case managers, their jobs terrify me sometimes... Being a counselor , also. Hats off to you both!"


    ILI-Te: "[Friend]...well, you may not have perceived depressed from him, as a lot of people didnt...and that is the problem I am talking about. His thinking and how strong and deep it was is only caused by a major mental disorder. Its not just oh he was angry and sexually frustrated and it just turned into that. There are many frustrated virgins out there. They all dont go on a killing spree. The type of thinking that gets you to that point is not normal, nor does it start at a normal place. I think any health professional would agree that the guy was deeply deeply depressed and had been for quite some time. It usually starts around puberty in psychopaths and the dude even mentioned "ever since puberty..." he has felt the world has wronged him ever since then. That is a sign of a serious mental disorder. I think if the general public just had a better understanding of identifying these things, you would be able to see it [friend]. Depression isnt just someone being like "oh im so sad""


    *In order, but with shorter comments in-between...

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    @SD45T-2 check out this timeline of the deadliest mass shootings from 1984-2014. these are only the deadliest shootings. the frequency of mass shootings (this doesn't even include things like the boston marathon bombings or 9/11) has definitely increased in recent years. 2012 was a banner year.
    Informative timeline. Out of approx. 40 attacks which senselessly slaughtered hundreds and hundreds of innocent people, not a single shooter was female. Women have as much access to guns as men do and it doesn't require a great deal of strength to pull a trigger. One has to wonder why males are overwhelmingly overrepresented in these rage attacks.

  5. #135
    Senior Member wildflower's Avatar
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    @LittleV your friend must have missed the part where he was in therapy since 8 years old and every day in high school and currently had two therapists. Therapy is very helpful to some people but not all. I am one of those folks who had plenty of therapy with a number of well-qualified therapists and neither it nor any of the ~10 different meds did a thing for my major depression. One of those therapists basically saved my good friend's life who had very similar struggles. I did find help elsewhere (God and later a 12-step program for people from dysfunctional families). Therapy is great when it works but to just casually write off a mass shooting to someone not having the right therapist or therapy just isn't acknowledging the limitations of therapy. There are no quick fixes that work for every person in every case and I'm not at all suggesting that with some form of gun control. These are both deep societal & individual problems and his having Asperger's as was reported makes it that much more complicated.
    Last edited by wildflower; 05-26-2014 at 04:42 AM. Reason: Add

  6. #136
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    @LittleV your friend must have missed the part where he was in therapy since 8 years old and every day in high school and currently had two therapists. Therapy is very helpful to some people but not all. I am one of those folks who had plenty of therapy with a number of well-qualified therapists and neither it nor any of the ~10 different meds did a thing for my major depression. One of those therapists basically saved my good friend's life who had very similar struggles. I did find help elsewhere (God and later a 12-step program for people from dysfunctional families). Therapy is great when it works but to just casually write off a mass shooting to someone not having the right therapist or therapy just isn't acknowledging the limitations of therapy.
    They mentioned the limitations of therapy, as well as the influences of nature + nurture.

  7. #137
    Senior Member Nara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    Informative timeline. Out of approx. 40 attacks which senselessly slaughtered hundreds and hundreds of innocent people, not a single shooter was female. Women have as much access to guns as men do and it doesn't require a great deal of strength to pull a trigger. One has to wonder why males are overwhelmingly overrepresented in these rage attacks.
    Men are more prone to externalize when women usually internalize (they experience twice the rate of depression as men).
    It's probably due to the level of testerone/estrogen.

    But I think there are some other factors, women are also conditioned to hide their aggressivity so they'll express it preferably in a psychological and twisted/subtle way, while physical aggressivity is more toletared from men (I should say "was" since our societies have adopted feminine values).

    Ah, I just found this and it confirmed my intuition:

    Women are more likely to develop anxiety and mood disorders such as depression, while men's mental health issues are more likely to involve antisocial personality and substance abuse disorders, a new study says.

    That's because women are more likely to internalize their emotions, which can bring on withdrawal, loneliness and depression, whereas men externalize them, becoming aggressive and impulsive, the researchers showed.
    In Mental Illness, Women Internalize and Men Externalize | Women Develop Anxiety, Depression; Men Become Antisocial, Alcohol-Dependent | LiveScience
    To exist is to change, to change is to mature, to mature is to go on creating oneself endlessly.
    Henri Bergson

    C'est faux de dire: Je pense : on devrait dire : On me pense.
    It is wrong to say: I think. One should say: I am thought.
    Arthur Rimbaud

  8. #138
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Gun homicides are usually committed with small cheap stuff like .22LR, .25 Auto, .32 Auto, .380 Auto, and 9mm.
    As of yesterday, after they found 3 more bodies stabbed to death in the kid's apartment, plus the 3 other bodies he stabbed, 6 of 9 of Rodger's victims were killed with a knife.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  9. #139
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I wish we would stop making a big deal of these shooters. Screw them. This attention is exactly what they wanted. Whatever "issue" they wanted to bring up in their "manifesto" is being discussed. This is what they wanted.

    Let's remember and honor the victims instead.
    I don't think anyone's making a big deal of the shooter other than trying to understand what happened.

    View count on youtube of his last video was 50,000 right after it happened.

    Then 1 day:



    2 days:



    Nothing is going to stop the fascination of this shit.

    I totally agree, " This attention is exactly what they wanted."

    They're going to get it, in this society anyway. But I find the focus on the shooter seems to die down, then the focus returns to "what can we do?" Alas, shit keeps happening.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    This is rather controversial, but I wonder if the existence of legal prostitution could have changed the outcome.
    I don't think prostitution will solve everything but it might be a good resolution for certain disabled people who can't or are unable to get laid. And I mean sincerely here. Even some governments pay for the disabled person's prostitute:

    A 'man of 21 with learning disabilities has been granted taxpayers' money to fly to Amsterdam and have sex with a prostitute.

    His social worker says sex is a 'human right' for the unnamed individual - described as a frustrated virgin.

    His trip to a brothel in the Dutch capital's red light district next month is being funded through a £520million scheme introduced by the last government to empower those with disabilities.

    They are given a personal budget and can choose what services this is spent on.
    The man's social worker, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said his client was an 'angry, frustrated and anxious young man' who had a need for sex.
    'He's planning to do more than just have his end away - he's having a holiday,' he said.
    'He has been to two sexual health and sexual awareness courses and basically wants to try it.
    'The girls in Amsterdam are far more protected than those on UK streets. Let him have some fun - I'd want to.
    'Wouldn't you prefer that we can control this, guide him, educate him, support him to understand the process and ultimately end up satisfying his needs in a secure, licensed place where his happiness and growth as a person is the most important thing?

    'Refusing to offer him this service would be a violation of his human rights.'

    Paying for sex is not illegal but soliciting sexual services, kerb crawling and paying for sex with women who have been coerced into prostitution is.

    The social worker added: 'Who says he can't do what he wants? We can't place restrictions on a young man who wants to experience the world.'

    The trip emerged in data from Freedom of Information requests which revealed that many councils are using the money from the government's Putting People First scheme to pay for prostitutes, visits to lap dancing clubs and exotic holidays.

    Another man who has a brain injury has even had sex work built into his council care package.

    This is designed to teach him to become sexually 'self-reliant' after his wife left him and took all their money.

    It has increased his confidence and restored his faith in women, care workers said.

    Critics yesterday said the use of taxpayers' money to fund sex trips abroad as 'deeply worrying'.

    In Greater Manchester and Norfolk, social care clients have used their payments for internet dating subscriptions.

    In one year, a man from Norwich who suffers mental health problems received a holiday to Tunisia, a subscription to an internet dating site, driving lessons and expensive art materials.

    This was on top of state benefits. He claimed he needed 'some time out, some rest and a change of scenery' after a mental breakdown.

    He also argued that a break in Tunisia with a friend was cheaper than a week in institutional care.
    A survey by The Outsiders and TLC Trusts - groups which campaign for the sexual rights of people with disabilities - found most local authorities said they did not 'condone' transfer of their funds to pay for sex.
    But of 121 councils who responded, 97 per cent said they had no offical policy on the topic.
    Instead, they left decisions to the discretion of their social workers and junior managers.
    Nevertheless, 53 per cent of the councils were said to have a strategy that 'explicitly empowered' disabled people to pursue their sexual aspirations.
    Neil Coyle, director of policy at Disability Alliance, said most people with disabilities did not want or expect the state to pay for sexual services.
    'Public bodies don't exist to find people sexual partners,' he said.
    'When people go to councils for help, they are looking for essential services to maintain some level of dignified existence - help to dress and wash.'
    Matthew Elliot, chief executive of The Taxpayers' Alliance, said: 'Many taxpayers will be appalled and offended that money intended for social care has been used in this way.
    'What's more, it's deeply worrying that this scheme has been so vulnerable to these abuses.
    'It's essential that where public funds are involved, there are the sort of checks and balances in place that prevent money being wasted in this way.'
    But Liz Sayce, chief executive of disability network Radar, agreed with the social worker the desire for sexual relations was a matter of human rights.
    Cases involving payments should be carefully examined on a 'case by case' basis, she added.

    A Department of Health spokesman said: 'Money allocated through Putting People First should be used by councils to help people to live independently.'


    Source: Councils pay for disabled to visit prostitutes and lap-dancing clubs | Mail Online

    At the very least, even if you don't agree with the funding or act of paying for a disabled person's prostitute, prostitution itself shouldn't be illegal or should be legalized. The government doesn't have a right to say what women can or cannot do with their bodies.

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