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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    This is irrelevant. This is a 10th Amendment issue. Each individual state should get to decide which groups to grant certain privileges to.



    Of course it's discriminatory since all privileges are discriminatory. Society can't afford to give everyone certain privileges, especially privileges that cost money. For instance, President Obama can give an ambassadorship to Caroline Kennedy and that privilege isn't extended to the rest of us. I have no problem with that even though it is discriminatory.



    Voting is a Constitutionally guaranteed right; it's not a privilege. That's the difference. I also disagree with laws that tell a business who they should or shouldn't hire. The free market automatically weeds out bigots because it's an inferior business model; we don't need the government involved at all.



    How does defining marriage as between a man and a woman violate the Constitution? It doesn't; this is clearly a 10th Amendment right given to the states and we're seeing judges impose their personal beliefs on tens of millions of people.



    Gay marriage proponents who use the equal treatment argument are hypocrites; they support discrimination of other groups as I've demonstrated. They aren't required to be consistent but I'm going to point it out.



    I'm entirely and perpetually consistent. I support discrimination-based privileges because it's a necessity and there is no getting around it.


    you're living in a fantasy if you honestly believe the free market "automatically weeds out bigots"

    especially the part about "automatically"

    Also, we don't have a free market in this nation.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    In addition, cries of "judicial activism" becomes rather hollow when the person being accused wears the same label as the accuser.
    So as long as a person from a particular group says it, it's okay?

    Then why are black Republicans still pariahs?
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  3. #33
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    So as long as a person from a particular group says it, it's okay?

    Then why are black Republicans still pariahs?
    not even sure where you're going with this, honestly -- want to explain? I don't think I said anything was "okay."

    I'm saying the party position is changing a bit in the ranks in regards to same-sex marriage. If you want to talk about racism within the ranks, feel free, but it's a different topic. (Although to bring the two together briefly, I think the black religious republican community is pretty heavily anti-same-sex if you look at the polling.)
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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    not even sure where you're going with this, honestly -- want to explain? I don't think I said anything was "okay."

    I'm saying the party position is changing a bit in the ranks in regards to same-sex marriage. If you want to talk about racism within the ranks, feel free, but it's a different topic. (Although to bring the two together briefly, I think the black religious republican community is pretty heavily anti-same-sex if you look at the polling.)
    Many black democrats are also anti-same sex marriage. I live in VA and exit polling in '08 and '12 showed heavy support for Obama in the African American community yet with much less support for gay marriage. I don't have the exact figures or statistics--I'd look it up but too tired right now. I've noticed that many African Americans STRONGLY resent the gay rights movement being compared to the civil rights movement in the 20th century.
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  5. #35
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit View Post
    Many black democrats are also anti-same sex marriage. I live in VA and exit polling in '08 and '12 showed heavy support for Obama in the African American community yet with much less support for gay marriage. I don't have the exact figures or statistics--I'd look it up but too tired right now. I've noticed that many African Americans STRONGLY resent the gay rights movement being compared to the civil rights movement in the 20th century.
    Thanks for clarifying that. (I actually spent a lot more time in proximity to white Republicans than Democrats iRL, so that's the only community I really know.)

    I live in Baltimore, and in 2012 (after Obama came out in support of same-sex marriage), I was very aware of all the radio ads around here (we have a high black population in Baltimore City) by black people of all professions in support of Obama and basically saying, "If you don't agree with same-sex marriage, that's okay -- Obama is still a better choice for you than Mitt Romney." It was all about damage control.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  6. #36
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus
    A tyrant who strikes down bans and makes privileges accessible to all is a good democrat and a tyrant worth keeping.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus
    You can rest easy: Marriage is still discriminatory. As a privilege, it is not extended to all, it is merely made accessible to all. You still have to perform certain rituals to be granted legal recognition of your partnership.
    Marriage has been accessible to all adults in (non-incestuous) relationships even before the gay marriage debate. Plenty of gay men married women and vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou
    Shocking that the most conservative poster at TypeC consistently supports discrimination-based privileges.
    Everyone does. The lefty who supports affirmative action supports discrimination. The Marxist who wants to soak the rich supports discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    In addition, cries of "judicial activism" becomes rather hollow when the person being accused wears the same label as the accuser.
    You're assuming I'd be fine with violations of the Constitution if they come from the right. I'm not. Justice Roberts is an alleged conservative who upheld Obamacare when it's clearly unconstitutional. I hope that bastard gets run over by a donkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Does this gel with either of your thinking on the topic / what do you think?
    That's the 10th amendment argument. Gay marriage should be decided state by state and the federal government should stay out of it. I'm opposed to DOMA because it's a federal law. Liberal states should be allowed to decide to define marriage in whatever manner they want and so should conservative states.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Conduit
    you're living in a fantasy if you honestly believe the free market "automatically weeds out bigots"
    It does and I'm correct because I understand economic principles. Will all bigotted businesses go out of business? Of course not, but most will because they wouldn't be able to compete with other businesses that aren't bigotted.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    You're assuming I'd be fine with violations of the Constitution if they come from the right.
    i don't think I assumed it. I just noted that he couldn't be excused as a "liberal democrat," which means dismissal has to come through arguments rather than allegiance, which might be a problem for some.

    Justice Roberts is an alleged conservative who upheld Obamacare when it's clearly unconstitutional. I hope that bastard gets run over by a donkey.
    Considering where he lives, that's a possibility. Vive Pennsyltucky!


    That's the 10th amendment argument. Gay marriage should be decided state by state and the federal government should stay out of it. I'm opposed to DOMA because it's a federal law. Liberal states should be allowed to decide to define marriage in whatever manner they want and so should conservative states.
    Thanks for the input.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #38
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    @lowtech redneck @Tellenbach
    Does this gel with either of your thinking on the topic / what do you think?
    The excerpt is pretty much my opinion on the matter, yes; United States versus Windsor upheld Constitutional state prerogatives while the Pennsylvania decision infringed upon them.

    I also do not think that sexual orientation is the equivalent of age, sex, race, or moral beliefs as matters subject to equal protection; this does not mean people choose their sexuality or that it has any moral relevance, or that gay couples should be excluded from the benefits of (or eligibility for) marriage, simply that non-heterosexual preferences do not constitute a binary or standard attribute of the human condition.

    One thing on that latter subject that I'm very interested about, however (part of the reason I created the other thread), is whether 'gay marriage as a Fourteenth Amendment issue' would logically also empower judges to strike down laws against polygamy if they disagreed with the secular rationale for such laws? Conversely, an interesting question for conservative opponents of the Windsor decision is whether they believe that congress should be able to invalidate state-sanctioned marriages between cousins or children under eighteen (these also differ by state)?

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    It does and I'm correct because I understand economic principles. Will all bigotted businesses go out of business? Of course not, but most will because they wouldn't be able to compete with other businesses that aren't bigotted.
    You might be surprised. Where do you live?

    btw, I in no way endorse government enforcement of affirmative action.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    not even sure where you're going with this, honestly -- want to explain? I don't think I said anything was "okay."

    I'm saying the party position is changing a bit in the ranks in regards to same-sex marriage. If you want to talk about racism within the ranks, feel free, but it's a different topic. (Although to bring the two together briefly, I think the black religious republican community is pretty heavily anti-same-sex if you look at the polling.)
    Ah, I was derpy when I posted that.

    I thought you meant judicial activism as far as overturning state law rather than judicial activism in support of gay rights.
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