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  1. #21

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    Shocking that the most conservative poster at TypeC consistently supports discrimination-based privileges. I think that Paul Ryan and Ted Cruz would have preferred to keep that cat in the bag, though.
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  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    This is irrelevant. This is a 10th Amendment issue. Each individual state should get to decide which groups to grant certain privileges to.
    If it wasn't clear, I wasn't addressing privilege but rather an aspect of the "culture wars," where one denomination of Christians for a long time has tried to dictate "what real Christians believe." However, we're seeing a radical change over the last twenty years of what "Christians" are expected to believe. If you've been watching this since the 80's and the days of Ralph Reed and Moral Majority, this is a profound shift.

    In addition, cries of "judicial activism" becomes rather hollow when the person being accused wears the same label as the accuser.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post

    I love when people look at gay marriage bans as unconstitutional and discriminatory...which they are, duh!!
    They are certainly discriminatory, and not for what I believe to be good reasons at that. However, why are they unconstitutional? And are bans on polygamy unconstitutional, as well? If not, why not?

    Actually, I think I'll start a thread on this.

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    @lowtech redneck @Tellenbach

    I ran across an article today about this and the Oregon case (the two most recent judicial decisions), and I was wondering what you thought about it. If you skim to the end, it looks like the author eventually thinks that same-sex marriage bans will be discarded by SCOTUS, but for the first half of the article focuses on how these two decisions actually overstep and even go far beyond the actual bounds of Windsor last summer.

    Does this gel with either of your thinking on the topic / what do you think?

    ... the lofty rhetoric of these decisions and their legal reasoning are a far cry from Justice Anthony Kennedy’s opinion in United States v. Windsor, which invalidated the Defense of Marriage Act less than a year ago. As a challenge to a state marriage amendment or law now seems destined to end up at the Supreme Court, probably in the next term, these discrepancies should be cause for concern.

    Unlike the recent decisions, Justice Kennedy’s Windsor opinion was a narrowly tailored document with a two-part logic. First he observed that marriage is a matter for the states, some of which had extended it to include same-sex couples. Second he wrote, “interference with the equal dignity of same-sex marriages, a dignity conferred by the States in the exercise of their sovereign power, was more than an incidental effect of the federal statute. It was its essence.”

    I’ve italicized that phrase for a reason. Notice that Justice Kennedy did not say same-sex marriage is a fundamental right or that DOMA violated the equal protection clause on its own terms. Rather, the state of New York had conferred the “dignity” of marriage on its gay and lesbian couples—and Congress had taken it away. Concluding that DOMA violated the Fifth Amendment’s due process clause, the Windsor opinion held that “no legitimate purpose overcomes the purpose and effect to disparage and to injure those whom the State, by its marriage laws, sought to protect in personhood and dignity.”

    That is a jurisprudentially conservative opinion, even if it led to a socially liberal result. Congress cannot treat unequally those whom a state has chosen to treat equally. Most of the last year’s marriage opinions have been far broader.

    In the Pennsylvania case, Whitewood v. Wolf, Judge Jones held that the due process clause confers a fundamental right to marry and, crucially, that that right is “personal to the individual.” In other words, the state can’t tell you whom you can marry. (Interestingly, Judge Jones did not distinguish same-sex marriage from, say, marriage between relatives, though of course it is easy to do so.)

    That is much more than what Windsor held. Indeed, in some ways, Judge Jones’s ruling is the opposite. Windsor held that states can decide which marriages are valid. Whitewood holds that they can’t.... (etc)
    Is Gay Marriage Unstoppable? - Yahoo News
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    It looks like PA Governor Tom Corbett (who was defending the ban in court) has decided not to appeal.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Ehhhhhhh...

    Still not a fan of federal courts overthrowing state law.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  7. #27
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    If you scroll down in this article you can see the unique way the Federal judge wrote his decision, using the language of wedding vows:

    Federal Court Strikes Down Pennsylvania's Same-Sex Marriage Ban - Yahoo News

    @lowtech redneck: It is unconstitutional because of the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution which supersedes any state constitution. Also, I'm not opposed to polygamy as long as it isn't with children held in some type of slavery for religious purposes...and I don't care if that infringes on your religious beliefs (not you in particular), it is child abuse and sexual assault on a child.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It looks like PA Governor Tom Corbett (who was defending the ban in court) has decided not to appeal.
    Pennsylvania won't appeal same-sex marriage case - Yahoo News

    "The case is extremely unlikely to succeed on appeal," Corbett said in a statement. "Therefore, after review of the opinion and on the advice of my commonwealth legal team, I have decided not to appeal."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Ehhhhhhh...

    Still not a fan of federal courts overthrowing state law.
    Why?

  10. #30
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Why?
    Because the sovereignty of a state is steadily eroded if the federal government refuses to respect its decisions. What's the point of a state existing if the people of a state are ruled by the opinions of other states' citizens?

    We might as well just do away with states and be one federal entity.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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