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  1. #1
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Default Death Panels at Veterans Administration Hospitals

    Another week, another Obama scandal. Officials at various Veterans Administration hospitals have reported inaccurate waiting times and kept secret lists from the Inspectors General. The Obama administration was made aware of this problem back in 2008 but Obama's spokesperson Jay Carney maintains that the President learned about this problem on the news like everyone else. As many as 1000 veterans have died since 2001 while waiting for medical treatment.

    "In recent months, reports have surfaced about secret wait lists at facilities across the country and, in the case of a Phoenix VA facility, accusations that officials cooked the books to try to hide long wait times. Some families said veterans died while on a secret wait list at the Phoenix facility."

    He KNEW! Obama told of Veterans Affairs health care debacle as far back as 2008

    "The number of dead veterans could total more than 1,100 from 2001 through the first half of 2013 -- including 16 at the Dayton VA Medical Center and 11 at the Cincinnati VA -- according to records obtained via Freedom of Information Act."

    "Inspectors found that three of 10 gastroenterology referrals they reviewed at one medical center had left veterans waiting 140 to 210 days. Four of 10 physical therapy referrals at another medical center took 108 to 152 days "with no apparent action taken to schedule an appointment for the veteran.""

    'Delay in treatment' a factor in more than 100 deaths at VA centers

    Will President Obama hold anyone accountable? He hasn't with the rollout of Obamacare; he didn't with Benghazi or the IRS, but maybe this time will be different.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    What a fitting title.

  3. #3
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    Sorry, but you are completely misusing the term death panel as part of some cheap rhetorical maneuver. There is no indication in either of your articles of these secret waiting lists being assembled though assessment of individual patient "worthiness" - which was the original meaning of the term coined by Palin in 2009.

    Having said that, cooking the books is completely unacceptable, and whoever signed off on it must be punished.

  4. #4
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan
    There is no indication in either of your articles of these secret waiting lists being assembled though assessment of individual patient "worthiness" - which was the original meaning of the term coined by Palin in 2009.
    While Governor Palin did use the term, I know she didn't coin it. It matters not what criteria bureaucrats used to put people on waiting lists. What matters is that such lists existed. Health decisions should ideally be made by you and your doctor. This disaster is further evidence that all government run healthcare systems result in dramatically increased waiting times (by creating excess demand) and lower quality.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  5. #5
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    Perhaps I'm being callous...but umm, it's 1000 people over the last 13 years. I mean yeah, in an ideal world that number would be 0...but given the realities of the world 1000 people isn't that bad. It could be worse.

    I guess growing up in part in the third world makes me a bit jaded. People are piled up like 30 in a room for 10 just slowly wasting away in some areas of the world...so 1000 people dying because of long wait times seems like a good problem to have, imo.

    I remember when I broke my hand we showed up to the hospital and the hospital didn't have any plaster! They sent a person to go buy it while we were there.

    But, that's the world for you. Some people have problems. Other people would love to have those problems.

  6. #6
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Health decisions should ideally be made by you and your doctor.
    That's not a bad ideal to have when it works.

    I'm tired of having medical treatments already vetted and approved by psychiatrists and doctors denied me on someone else's religious grounds or overall bureaucratic discrimination / rule by tyrannical majority / bean-counters.

    Still, I can see what @xisnotx says, in both the context factor (what kinds of problems you're used to). as well as overall benefit/cost factors. There are many things in our culture that incur cost on a small number of people (comparatively) for the larger benefit -- transportation is one of them, if you consider vehicular death. How do we we balance all that?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #7
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Hmmm.

    Obama: Any misconduct at VA will be punished

    Barack Obama declared Wednesday that allegations of misconduct at VA hospitals are "dishonorable" and will be not be tolerated by his administration. "I will not stand for it — not as commander in chief but also not as an American," Obama said following an Oval Office meeting with embattled VA Secretary Eric Shinseki.

    His administration is under mounting pressure from Capitol Hill to address troubling allegations of treatment delays and preventable deaths at VA hospitals. The VA Inspector General's office said late Tuesday that 26 facilities are being investigated nationwide — up from 10 just last week — including a Phoenix hospital where 40 veterans allegedly died while waiting for treatment and staff there kept a secret list of patients waiting for appointments to hide delays in care...(etc)
    Obama: Any misconduct at VA will be punished - Yahoo News
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #8
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Sorry, but you are completely misusing the term death panel as part of some cheap rhetorical maneuver. There is no indication in either of your articles of these secret waiting lists being assembled though assessment of individual patient "worthiness" - which was the original meaning of the term coined by Palin in 2009.
    The meanings of phrases change as they're used. Welcome to semantics.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  9. #9
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    That's not a bad ideal to have when it works.
    It'd work much better if the Veterans Affairs department were eliminated altogether and the money went directly to the veterans. Why should veterans be restricted to seeing doctors at certain facilities? Why can't they be allowed to see whichever doctor they want? Give them a card that's linked to a health savings account and let them decide where they want to spend the money. Problem solved.

    As with most lefty programs, the purpose of serving the public is secondary to the purpose of growing government. The thousands of bureaucrats at Veterans Affairs exist because bureaucrats tend to vote a certain way (Democrat) so politicians are reluctant to make any changes that reduce their base.

    Don't hold your breath on Obama doing anything. He's known about this problem for 6 years and Obama has never held any of his staff accountable.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #10
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    you know those so called death panels at the VA my dad worked on comittees and they were trying to reduce the wait times there's a probablem with the software and sometimes the results get matched with the wrong patient before he died he was part of the comitted looking for a soluion to that so no it's not oh we're gonna kill the patient he was horrified by it as well. So, no sinister plot to kill veterans by the government just average bureacratic clusterfuck and bad software
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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