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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    How did I know, before reading your self-typing that this post was written by an INFJ?

    I would love to go on such a journey with you guys for all kinds of reasons.
    Now, how should the team be built up? I'm still scaringly incompetent in MBTI characteristics but perhaps with some help we could find suitable roles and individuals here at the forum?

    In alphabetical order:

    Type Role Individuals
    ENFJ
    ENFP
    ENTJ
    ENTP
    ESFJ
    ESFP
    ESTJ
    ESTP
    INFJ
    INFP
    INTJ
    INTP
    ISFJ
    ISFP
    ISTJ
    ISTP

    Edit: Deleted individual column slot. Perhaps too private. They should write their own username only in that case.
    Last edited by Geonat; 05-24-2014 at 05:55 PM. Reason: Second thought

  2. #22
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    I'm not going to talk about the cultural degradation (though the causes of this are ultimately the same causes of the population and immigration problems, so it's kind of related). But I do want to talk a bit about nationalism. I am convinced that nationalism is the most natural way to form a state, at least in Europe (I'm not that familiar with how people of other races organise themselves), based on history and how the current system Western countries have adopted is so obviously unsustainable. If you look back even before there were actual nation-states, in the multi-ethnic empires such as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the various ethnic groups kept to themselves. They had their own distinct communities. So, I'm convinced that an organic state should be built in this way, and that's not even taking into account the conflict you always get when forcing ethnic groups to live together, especially if they are vastly different. This seems to me to be an unnatural way to live. It can be done, but only if you as leader respect the differences the groups have and don't force them to mix with each other at every level of life...which is exactly what happens now.

    I also cynically notice that the media (again, think of motive) attitude to nationalism varies radically depending on the ethnic group in question. For example, Tibetan nationalism is widely supported by left wingers but none of them would support, say, German nationalism. What you grant to one group you cannot deny another.

    Anyway, this is just my two cents. I'm in a bad mood again so apologies if this comes across as combative...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I'm not going to talk about the cultural degradation (though the causes of this are ultimately the same causes of the population and immigration problems, so it's kind of related). But I do want to talk a bit about nationalism. I am convinced that nationalism is the most natural way to form a state, at least in Europe (I'm not that familiar with how people of other races organise themselves), based on history and how the current system Western countries have adopted is so obviously unsustainable. If you look back even before there were actual nation-states, in the multi-ethnic empires such as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the various ethnic groups kept to themselves. They had their own distinct communities. So, I'm convinced that an organic state should be built in this way, and that's not even taking into account the conflict you always get when forcing ethnic groups to live together, especially if they are vastly different. This seems to me to be an unnatural way to live. It can be done, but only if you as leader respect the differences the groups have and don't force them to mix with each other at every level of life...which is exactly what happens now.

    I also cynically notice that the media (again, think of motive) attitude to nationalism varies radically depending on the ethnic group in question. For example, Tibetan nationalism is widely supported by left wingers but none of them would support, say, German nationalism. What you grant to one group you cannot deny another.

    Anyway, this is just my two cents. I'm in a bad mood again so apologies if this comes across as combative...
    Alright, let us put aside religion and culture for the moment as you suggest if I understood it right, and talk about the ethnicity part.

    The reason why various ethnical groups have kept to themselves in the past may very well partly have been because the were no simple means of transportation and communication.

    There was no "universal" language like English a couple of hundred years ago. Or internet. Or cell phones. Or airplanes.

    We have evolved. Documentation gives us access to the knowledge of a myriad of people that have died long ago, making scientific and other progress possible at an ever increasing rate. With education we can learn to go beyond what shows on the outside. This should come as no surprise. There is a problem with non-dominant genes, I agree. But that could be solved scientifically too.

    Collecting an ethnical group to a specific location on earth is moreover not a very robust solution from an survival point of view because of local natural and human-made disasters.

    And what if a few of those [insert arbitrary hair/skin/eye color] actually had a preference for [insert other arbitrary hair/skin/eye color]? Wouldn't it be a little unpractical with all those long-distance relationships and keeping the family members under the same roof?

    I would like to go back to (sorry for cross-posting, there is a reason)
    Quote Originally Posted by KittyrinahasCupquake View Post
    Random thought:

    What if we made a sprially bridge that connects all the countries and anyone can use it for free and it's multi coloured, also, it would have a special thing about it that made you travel faster on it and you wouldn't feel any weight on you
    Yeah, wouldn't that be great? INTXs! Where is that teleporter anyway? It was almost a century since Einstein found out about that photoelectric effect (yes he was very much the father of both relativity and quantum physics) and Heisenberg developed the quantum physics framework! Note the ethnical differences between the two of them. Perhaps if they and others had been able to work together more closely in those thirties and fourties...

    Wouldn't it be lovely to be able to travel to any place in the world without visas or passports? But who should have their base in the geographically "best" place? I don't know. Should it be the most intelligent and physically strongest because they need it the least? Would it really matter if the basic standard was pretty much the same everywhere (hello Maslow) so that there would be no real urge to move except temporarily for holidays?

    This is not my area of expertise in any way. But I fail to see why this would be more impossible to achieve or worse than a collection of nations and ethnical groups divided by arbitrary borders?

    Edit: From "The thin red line":

    Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart.

    Maybe all men got one big soul where everybody's a part of. All faces are the same man, one big self. Everyone looking for salvation by himself. Each like a coal drawn from the fire.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geonat View Post
    Alright, let us put aside religion and culture for the moment as you suggest if I understood it right, and talk about the ethnicity part.

    The reason why various ethnical groups have kept to themselves in the past may very well partly have been because the were no simple means of transportation and communication.

    There was no "universal" language like English a couple of hundred years ago. Or internet. Or cell phones. Or airplanes.
    Already I see you haven't read my post properly. Before nationalism became a powerful force in the 19th century, Europe consisted of multiethnic empires. However the various peoples within these empires kept their own language and did not mix their blood, and pressure to integrate led to revolution. The Austro-Hungarian Empire (and the Ottoman Empire) are two excellent examples of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geonat View Post
    We have evolved. Documentation gives us access to the knowledge of a myriad of people that have died long ago, making scientific and other progress possible at an ever increasing rate. With education we can learn to go beyond what shows on the outside. This should come as no surprise. There is a problem with non-dominant genes, I agree. But that could be solved scientifically too.

    Collecting an ethnical group to a specific location on earth is moreover not a very robust solution from an survival point of view because of local natural and human-made disasters.

    And what if a few of those [insert arbitrary hair/skin/eye color] actually had a preference for [insert other arbitrary hair/skin/eye color]? Wouldn't it be a little unpractical with all those long-distance relationships and keeping the family members under the same roof?
    Let's look at the evidence, ethnic groups have a genetic distance that corresponds closely to the physical distance between their lands. Ethnic identity is not arbitrary, racial differences are extensively debated scientifically. You have a damn nerve suggesting that I have no identity, I take that as a personal insult!

    From UPGMA:



    The actual % difference between groups is low, but then again difference between all humans and a chimp, or even a mouse, is not much more significant. When you look at it that way you begin to realise that even very small genotypic differences create a big difference in phenotype, presumably due to the ways genes are expressed as much as their composition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geonat View Post
    I would like to go back to (sorry for cross-posting, there is a reason)


    Yeah, wouldn't that be great? INTXs! Where is that teleporter anyway? It was almost a century since Einstein found out about that photoelectric effect (yes he was very much the father of both relativity and quantum physics) and Heisenberg developed the quantum physics framework! Note the ethnical differences between the two of them. Perhaps if they and others had been able to work together more closely in those thirties and fourties...

    Wouldn't it be lovely to be able to travel to any place in the world without visas or passports? But who should have their base in the geographically "best" place? I don't know. Should it be the most intelligent and physically strongest because they need it the least? Would it really matter if the basic standard was pretty much the same everywhere (hello Maslow) so that there would be no real urge to move except temporarily for holidays?

    This is not my area of expertise in any way. But I fail to see why this would be more impossible to achieve or worse than a collection of nations and ethnical groups divided by arbitrary borders?
    This is not my area of expertise either, I'm a musician but i've taken the time to do some research...pushing disparate ethnic groups together has caused violence time after time in history, there are examples of this within our lifetimes! Yet people like you simply refuse to learn from this. I can't even be bothered pointing out the disasters removing border control would lead to, if you can't figure them out for yourself...

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    So we should just ignore problems? Im sorry if Im not reading you right, but it seems that thats what you're suggesting, ignore problems, until we get peace of mind from ignorance.
    Maybe I didn't word it very well. What I meant to say was that 'happiness' nowadays is too focused on 'getting' and 'having', and this leads to this social mental state of greed and exploitation.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Already I see you haven't read my post properly. Before nationalism became a powerful force in the 19th century, Europe consisted of multiethnic empires. However the various peoples within these empires kept their own language and did not mix their blood, and pressure to integrate led to revolution. The Austro-Hungarian Empire (and the Ottoman Empire) are two excellent examples of this.

    Let's look at the evidence, ethnic groups have a genetic distance that corresponds closely to the physical distance between their lands. Ethnic identity is not arbitrary, racial differences are extensively debated scientifically. You have a damn nerve suggesting that I have no identity, I take that as a personal insult!

    From UPGMA:



    The actual % difference between groups is low, but then again difference between all humans and a chimp, or even a mouse, is not much more significant. When you look at it that way you begin to realise that even very small genotypic differences create a big difference in phenotype, presumably due to the ways genes are expressed as much as their composition.



    This is not my area of expertise either, I'm a musician but i've taken the time to do some research...pushing disparate ethnic groups together has caused violence time after time in history, there are examples of this within our lifetimes! Yet people like you simply refuse to learn from this. I can't even be bothered pointing out the disasters removing border control would lead to, if you can't figure them out for yourself...
    Your solution to diversity seems to consist in forming little islands with mutual exchange.
    This is not a robust solution if the islands are physical.
    You are describing a prison. This is not freedom.
    At best it is only happiness in slavery.

    A forum like this on the other hand is an island that allows mutual exchange. But it is not physical.
    And it also allows a lot of freedom. Freedom of speech. Doesn't that feel better?

    Edit: And what says that we can't have both?
    As long as the physical islands aren't too big.
    That would even allow many of the same kind but in different geographical locations.
    And as long as the possibilites of exhange are great.
    Last edited by Geonat; 05-25-2014 at 07:21 AM. Reason: Ni

  7. #27
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    Maybe I didn't word it very well. What I meant to say was that 'happiness' nowadays is too focused on 'getting' and 'having', and this leads to this social mental state of greed and exploitation.
    Thanks for the clarification!

  8. #28
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    The problem with European nationalism is its historical antecendants, namely how nationalism is associated with racism, xenophobia, and the persecution of minorities.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geonat View Post
    Your solution to diversity seems to consist in forming little islands with mutual exchange.
    This is not a robust solution if the islands are physical.
    You are describing a prison. This is not freedom.
    At best it is only happiness in slavery.

    A forum like this on the other hand is an island that allows mutual exchange. But it is not physical.
    And it also allows a lot of freedom. Freedom of speech. Doesn't that feel better?

    Edit: And what says that we can't have both?
    As long as the physical islands aren't too big.
    That would even allow many of the same kind but in different geographical locations.
    And as long as the possibilites of exhange are great.
    I am interested in what provides the most security for me and my family, especially regarding future generations who currently have no voice. This is intrinsically tied to what is the most effective, safe, stable way to run a country. The lessons of the past, along with my own observations, teach that having disparate ethnic groups in a country is a very bad idea. The feelings and interests of alien peoples are not my concern. You are not unusual in the Anglosphere in refusing to listen to this, but many people elsewhere agree with me and are getting angry:

    French far right in 'earthquake' win as Europe votes | Reuters

    The icing on the cake: "Sweden appeared to have elected the only feminist party member of the EU assembly." Epic fail!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I am interested in what provides the most security for me and my family, especially regarding future generations who currently have no voice. This is intrinsically tied to what is the most effective, safe, stable way to run a country. The lessons of the past, along with my own observations, teach that having disparate ethnic groups in a country is a very bad idea. The feelings and interests of alien peoples are not my concern. You are not unusual in the Anglosphere in refusing to listen to this, but many people elsewhere agree with me and are getting angry:

    French far right in 'earthquake' win as Europe votes | Reuters

    The icing on the cake: "Sweden appeared to have elected the only feminist party member of the EU assembly." Epic fail!
    The only thing I seem to have achieved by trying to unite and see things from all angles is that some people don't really trust me any longer. I can do nothing about that except telling them that I want peace and happiness for everybody.

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