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  1. #61
    A Gentle Whisper ~MS*ANGEL~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    https://www.change.org/petitions/fre...-no-600-lashes


    For those who wanna try and do something about it.
    Thanks signed it!
    Only she who attempts the absurd can achieve the impossible... and then some.

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  2. #62
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Star View Post
    Hmm... last night I learned that Islam is a highly misunderstood religion, all because of wrong language translations from the Koran (Arabic is the original language it was written in). Extremists who claim to be Islamists/jihadis are really just terrorists who do not realize that their own Koran says this:

    1) The biggest Jihad is the Jihad of you fighting your own bad self.
    2) If you kill an innocent person, I (Allah) would consider that you have killed the entire humanity, and I will never forgive you.

    [The definition of jihad is given in the Koran as "the war between good and evil". And the word islam literally means "peace".]

    I'm still surprised that Islamists (especially those in the Saudi Arabian government, coming back to this case) do not understand their own religion properly. I wish to study this further, so that I can go out and enlighten the world a little more.
    These Islamists certainly understand it far better than you do. Do yourself a favor and at least look up what the various foundational doctrines of Islam are. One that has specific application to so-called Islamic extremism, is called The Abrogator and Abrogated (otherwise known as the doctrine of abrogation), specifically how it applies to the doctrine of jihad. You will see from that and plenty of other things (long before getting into any potentially tricky areas), that this is not such a simple issue that one can say, "Oh those stupid Islamists don't actually understand it, we can just ignore them." Both 'sides,' as it were, of Islam, have their arguments, but it would be rash and naive to claim that those we westerners deem as 'extremist' are clueless.

    The only 'peace' in Islam (referring to theological/historical sense here), is peace on THEIR terms, i.e. peace through subjugation. Read some Islamic history and how it was founded. Or hell, even what various Islamic groups and Muslims in general (obviously, not saying every one in existence, I am using 'in general' just as shorthand...no need for vast overreactions here to avoid confronting the reality that these people not only exist but in far greater numbers than what some would have you believe, and pose a threat for a LOT of other people around the world) are doing today and in recent history by pressuring everyone to conform to their sensibilities or suffer the consequences. At this point (you seem very new to the subject), you're not going to be doing any 'enlightening' of anyone. I mean no offense here, but that's just how it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    Islam is a religion of peace, elevation of women and women's rights, striving for humanitarian causes- and full of rich science, history and prophecy. The Islamophobia network in the U.S. and Britain in particular- is a multi-million dollar smear campaign- really to elevate the zionist imperialist agenda. If you use half a brain and read a few resources outside of the western tainted media- and actually make some friends with actual Muslims- you will find it not only intrigueing--- but people that will do anything for you in your time of need especially.

    Don't judge a faith and an entire base of muslims worldwide by a bunch of nimwit political leaders and a small percentage of extremists- that exist in all religions and cultures.
    Your first paragraph...what a load of hooey. You've bought into it hook, line, and sinker. Considering that you can find plenty of Islamic sources (a common liberal handwaving strategy to claim that only Western media and sources support this view, when reality utterly destroys that cognitive dissonance if you actually look for it) that support jihadi and generally so-called 'extremist' (but in reality, highly accurate...and this is not even my own opinion but what many well-respected Islamic theologians will say who are not politically involved at all) interpretations of the Koran/Hadiths/etc. (including even various high ranking imams, their ultimate religious leaders, all the way down the power/influence demographics to individuals running their own websites or blogs, interviews with people on the street, and video recordings of their policies in action i.e. morality police, public beatings, beheading unbelievers [even children performing the beheadings], etc. etc.), not only from people who are militarily active but those who do not fight militarily as well (including US based groups like CAIR and ISNA, which have proven connections to terrorist groups via funding and histories of high ranking members; the same can be said about the Muslim Brotherhood as well. Their recent deposition from power in Egypt and various investigations into their activities there brought this to light quite a lot.), you really haven't looked into things as much as you think you have.

    Obviously this does not mean every single Muslim in existence around the world is the same (Can we all just not ever use this lazy excuse for 'reasoning'? Seriously, black and white knee-jerk thinking has no place in this and will only ever keep you in the dark.); however, liberal propaganda (in conjunction with Muslim PR groups like the ones I mentioned earlier) would have us all believe that Islam is some peaceful spiritual utopia, and that to criticize it is shameful and should be (or in some countries, even ones not currently a Muslim majority, is) illegal and/or punishable. In the west, Muslims have far greater freedoms than they would ever have in the middle east or Africa (where Sharia law is followed and enforced far more strictly by both the government and your everyday citizen; one example of this is honor beating/killings, where if a daughter gets involved too closely relationally with an unbeliever, the father is obliged to separate them and punish his daughter, and even killing her is let off by a very light punishment, and considered socially acceptable because you are protecting the family name from the shame your daughter brought upon it...since after all, women have half the worth of men to them, so it doesn't matter [see how proceedings of rape cases are handled and what a woman's testimony is worth]), and so growing up, they are not raised to support the aspects of Islam that suppress that freedom. They are proud of their freedoms and their current nationality, and wouldn't have it any other way. People living over in those countries, though...they are deeply ingrained with Sharia throughout their lives. It is part of their culture and identity and everything around them reinforces that. So naturally, how Muslims practice is going to differ quite a bit depending on where they live or where they grew up. Differences in practice also have to be taken into account regarding the influence of heterogeneous (especially the US) vs. homogeneous cultures. I have zero problem with any truly peaceful Muslim; however, there are countless other Muslims out there who would say, at the very least, that they are sorely mistaken, and at worst, pronounced outside the faith, punished, and even executed. There is a lot of Muslim on Muslim violence out there, and it has been like that for a very long time.

    A few minutes of searching and you could find all sorts of things. I should think that at the very least, all of the numerous and consistent human rights violations would be of great concern to you, especially those pertaining to how women are treated (women's rights in general, female genital mutilation, etc.), zero separation of church and state (Islam is both religious and political, a true theocracy.), and the persecution (including at the very least no public practice, as well as beating, rape, vandalism, mutilation, fire bombing, murder, etc.), or in some countries outright banning of any other religious practices (including atheism, yes even atheists can be jailed for criticizing Islam), even going so far as to issue fatwas to destroy every church in an entire country (including ones many centuries old), and forbidding the construction of any new ones whatsoever. Their priorities for persecution are Christianity first by far (there are many sources for the persecution of Christians by Muslims with casualty lists that could fill a book and plenty of property damage/destruction, including ancient Christian holy sites), then Judaism, then homosexuals/bisexuals/etc., then all other non-believers (including 'moderate' Muslims like what most in the west are, and anyone of any other belief/non-belief).

  3. #63
    A Gentle Whisper ~MS*ANGEL~'s Avatar
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    @_eric_ I respect your opinion, however much I may disagree with it.
    Only she who attempts the absurd can achieve the impossible... and then some.

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  4. #64
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Star View Post
    @_eric_ I respect your opinion, however much I may disagree with it.
    Have fun living in your fantasy world.

  5. #65
    A Gentle Whisper ~MS*ANGEL~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _eric_ View Post
    Have fun living in your fantasy world.
    Have fun watching me bring it to the real world!
    Only she who attempts the absurd can achieve the impossible... and then some.

    MY BLOGS: https://freestylelines.blogspot.com/, https://tfthdiary.blogspot.com/
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  6. #66
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Star View Post
    Have fun watching me bring it to the real world!
    My point is that there is a lot of information out there you don't know, and willfully ignoring it or not even trying to educate yourself is not going to help your cause in any way. But hey, that's up to you. I can't force you to acknowledge that it is a complicated, multi-faceted issue that cannot be so easily dismissed as if it were a bug on your arm. I can't force you to see the things that are difficult to see, even if I were to flood this thread with sources. You have to do that yourself. But if you are going into this with some preconceived notion that Islam truly is peaceful and that anyone who calls themselves a Muslim and isn't peaceful, is wrong and not actually Muslim (I'm afraid they would get a good laugh out of that.), you are already introducing a strong bias and doing yourself and those you are trying to help a disservice. Hence my comment, have fun living in your fantasy world...because you are ignoring the reality of the issue. It is forming a conclusion and then only limiting yourself to looking for and accepting proof that supports your conclusion.

  7. #67
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    @_eric_

    Preach on!

    Here's some interesting facts.

    Pew Research Center and ICM surveys of the world’s Muslims:

    Source: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pa...nion-polls.htm

    83% of Pakistanis support stoning adulterers
    82% of Egyptian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
    70% of Jordanian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
    42% of Indonesian Muslims favor stoning adulterers
    82% of Pakistanis favor stoning adulterers
    56% of Nigerian Muslims favor stoning adulterers


    84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
    86% of Jordanian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
    30% of Indonesian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
    76% of Pakistanis support death the penalty for leaving Islam
    51% of Nigerian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam

    40% of British Muslims want Sharia in the UK

    16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.

    35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
    42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
    22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
    29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).

    5% of Muslims in Britain tell pollsters they would not report a planned Islamic terror attack to authorities.

    68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
    43% of Nigerian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
    38% of Lebanese Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.

    77% of Egyptian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
    58% of Jordanian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
    36% of Indonesian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
    82% of Pakistanis favor floggings and amputation
    65% of Nigerian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

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  8. #68
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Not sure where to begin...

    Could it be that you deny the facts about the atrocities commited in the name of allah every day because of a few friends who have led you to believe Islam has no defects? I dont disrespect anyone's religious beliefs, but I dont care for the way religion has been used by extremist groups as well as politicians as a way of manipulating their population.
    EVERY culture and religion has extremists. The media focuses on the slither percent when it comes to Muslims. If you do research with math and real hard numbers - Islam does not have the lead in "terrorist" acts. White dudes do. I know it's hard to see past the pervasive media when it's fed to you in large doses on a constant basis. But Islam is not the problem. It's a solution in many communities. And many people are waking up.
    It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are. ~e.e. cummings

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  9. #69
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _eric_ View Post
    These Islamists certainly understand it far better than you do. Do yourself a favor and at least look up what the various foundational doctrines of Islam are. One that has specific application to so-called Islamic extremism, is called The Abrogator and Abrogated (otherwise known as the doctrine of abrogation), specifically how it applies to the doctrine of jihad. You will see from that and plenty of other things (long before getting into any potentially tricky areas), that this is not such a simple issue that one can say, "Oh those stupid Islamists don't actually understand it, we can just ignore them." Both 'sides,' as it were, of Islam, have their arguments, but it would be rash and naive to claim that those we westerners deem as 'extremist' are clueless.

    The only 'peace' in Islam (referring to theological/historical sense here), is peace on THEIR terms, i.e. peace through subjugation. Read some Islamic history and how it was founded. Or hell, even what various Islamic groups and Muslims in general (obviously, not saying every one in existence, I am using 'in general' just as shorthand...no need for vast overreactions here to avoid confronting the reality that these people not only exist but in far greater numbers than what some would have you believe, and pose a threat for a LOT of other people around the world) are doing today and in recent history by pressuring everyone to conform to their sensibilities or suffer the consequences. At this point (you seem very new to the subject), you're not going to be doing any 'enlightening' of anyone. I mean no offense here, but that's just how it is.

    Your first paragraph...what a load of hooey. You've bought into it hook, line, and sinker. Considering that you can find plenty of Islamic sources (a common liberal handwaving strategy to claim that only Western media and sources support this view, when reality utterly destroys that cognitive dissonance if you actually look for it) that support jihadi and generally so-called 'extremist' (but in reality, highly accurate...and this is not even my own opinion but what many well-respected Islamic theologians will say who are not politically involved at all) interpretations of the Koran/Hadiths/etc. (including even various high ranking imams, their ultimate religious leaders, all the way down the power/influence demographics to individuals running their own websites or blogs, interviews with people on the street, and video recordings of their policies in action i.e. morality police, public beatings, beheading unbelievers [even children performing the beheadings], etc. etc.), not only from people who are militarily active but those who do not fight militarily as well (including US based groups like CAIR and ISNA, which have proven connections to terrorist groups via funding and histories of high ranking members; the same can be said about the Muslim Brotherhood as well. Their recent deposition from power in Egypt and various investigations into their activities there brought this to light quite a lot.), you really haven't looked into things as much as you think you have.

    Obviously this does not mean every single Muslim in existence around the world is the same (Can we all just not ever use this lazy excuse for 'reasoning'? Seriously, black and white knee-jerk thinking has no place in this and will only ever keep you in the dark.); however, liberal propaganda (in conjunction with Muslim PR groups like the ones I mentioned earlier) would have us all believe that Islam is some peaceful spiritual utopia, and that to criticize it is shameful and should be (or in some countries, even ones not currently a Muslim majority, is) illegal and/or punishable. In the west, Muslims have far greater freedoms than they would ever have in the middle east or Africa (where Sharia law is followed and enforced far more strictly by both the government and your everyday citizen; one example of this is honor beating/killings, where if a daughter gets involved too closely relationally with an unbeliever, the father is obliged to separate them and punish his daughter, and even killing her is let off by a very light punishment, and considered socially acceptable because you are protecting the family name from the shame your daughter brought upon it...since after all, women have half the worth of men to them, so it doesn't matter [see how proceedings of rape cases are handled and what a woman's testimony is worth]), and so growing up, they are not raised to support the aspects of Islam that suppress that freedom. They are proud of their freedoms and their current nationality, and wouldn't have it any other way. People living over in those countries, though...they are deeply ingrained with Sharia throughout their lives. It is part of their culture and identity and everything around them reinforces that. So naturally, how Muslims practice is going to differ quite a bit depending on where they live or where they grew up. Differences in practice also have to be taken into account regarding the influence of heterogeneous (especially the US) vs. homogeneous cultures. I have zero problem with any truly peaceful Muslim; however, there are countless other Muslims out there who would say, at the very least, that they are sorely mistaken, and at worst, pronounced outside the faith, punished, and even executed. There is a lot of Muslim on Muslim violence out there, and it has been like that for a very long time.

    A few minutes of searching and you could find all sorts of things. I should think that at the very least, all of the numerous and consistent human rights violations would be of great concern to you, especially those pertaining to how women are treated (women's rights in general, female genital mutilation, etc.), zero separation of church and state (Islam is both religious and political, a true theocracy.), and the persecution (including at the very least no public practice, as well as beating, rape, vandalism, mutilation, fire bombing, murder, etc.), or in some countries outright banning of any other religious practices (including atheism, yes even atheists can be jailed for criticizing Islam), even going so far as to issue fatwas to destroy every church in an entire country (including ones many centuries old), and forbidding the construction of any new ones whatsoever. Their priorities for persecution are Christianity first by far (there are many sources for the persecution of Christians by Muslims with casualty lists that could fill a book and plenty of property damage/destruction, including ancient Christian holy sites), then Judaism, then homosexuals/bisexuals/etc., then all other non-believers (including 'moderate' Muslims like what most in the west are, and anyone of any other belief/non-belief).
    wow
    Do you realize how the Islamophobia network (you will never realize this- many Muslims do not) has hijacked Google so that Islamophobic articles are front and center to look as if they are reliable sources. The majority of what you wrote are falsehoods. You are a sheeple my dear. You WANT to hate Muslims so you love to believe what you read. Do you know any in real life? Been to a Muslim country? Been to a mosque? Studied Juan Cole, Abbey Martin, Jewish Voice for Peace, George Galloway, Southern Poverty Center, ACLU and yes, CAIR?

    They got you, girl. They got your mind. And your soul. And you will die a Muslim hater and you will wake up in the afterlife regretting your hate-spewing that does not forward society. But feeds violence.
    It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are. ~e.e. cummings

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  10. #70
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    EVERY culture and religion has extremists.
    Every culture and religion does NOT have this:

    84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
    86% of Jordanian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
    30% of Indonesian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
    76% of Pakistanis support death the penalty for leaving Islam
    51% of Nigerian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam

    There are similar numbers for atrocious 'blasphemy' laws and other assorted institutionalized human rights violations found within Shariah law.

    Those numbers are originally from the Pew Research Center, btw, not one of those 'Islamaphobic' sources you believe have misinformed people.

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