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  1. #11
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fghw View Post
    Well, elimination of the federal government from post-secondary education might mean less income for universities --> Less financial aid given by the university itself --> Less motivation to advance to post-secondary institutions --> Lower costs of education --> ...

    I'm not a republican but I would like to watch this unfold.
    This is one of the biggest concerns I have is the long term effect. IMO I think it's more important to put more emphasis and encouragement towards non-college required carreer paths by creating incentives. Less on making it less attractive to go to college. Both needs to happen but the former needs most of the effort.

    I'm mostly concerned with it's eventual impact on research. It's immensely important, and while it might not appear so, the undergraduate level has a huge indirect support of this. If we rip the rug out under the foundations of this, the short term effects would be tiny. But over a few decades we'd start noticing how terrible it is.
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  2. #12
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I'm mostly concerned with it's eventual impact on research. It's immensely important, and while it might not appear so, the undergraduate level has a huge indirect support of this. If we rip the rug out under the foundations of this, the short term effects would be tiny. But over a few decades we'd start noticing how terrible it is.
    Really?

    I think it's the opposite. The initial hit to Higher Ed would be pretty harsh with a drop in enrollment when securing loans becomes tougher and more expensive. This would lead to many administrators and academics having to leave education.

    That's why I think it would really have to be paired with something that would bring more immediate economic and job growth like maybe cutting regs and taxes on smaller businesses to soften the blow.

    Research might be hurt, but I'll take that over continuing to create millions of loan slaves.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Thoughts?
    It's an interesting thought.

    I don't see it actually getting any traction, though.

    Two sectors of the economy with the highest annual inflation over the last 30 yrs: Education and Healthcare...

    Annual inflation in these sectors over the last 30 years was 6%-7%, as opposed to 2%-3% for the rest of the economy...

    And two sectors where the federal government just HAPPENS to underwrite a MASSIVE amount of the spending that takes place...

    People really don't seem to understand how much this inflation has to do with the federal government's infinite checkbook massively subsidizing these sectors.

  4. #14
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Here’s the missile: Republicans commit, as part of their 2016 platform, to (1) canceling all student loans owed to the federal government and paying off all loans owed to private institutions and (2) eliminating all federal aid, grants, support, etc. to postsecondary educational institutions. It’s a package deal: no elimination of aid, no cancellation of debts.
    Part 1 has already happened to an extent. By executive order, Obama has decreed that graduates never pay more than 10% of their discretionary income (income that exceeds 150% of the poverty level) in loan repayments and all loan repayments will be canceled after 20 years. From Peter Schiff's "The Real Crash"

    I'm against it because you can never trust a Democrat to keep his end of the bargain. What's law today will be ignored tomorrow. What will happen is that loans will be forgiven immediately and the next time the Dems control Congress and the Presidency, they'll ram through the same garbage as before.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  5. #15
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Really?

    I think it's the opposite. The initial hit to Higher Ed would be pretty harsh with a drop in enrollment when securing loans becomes tougher and more expensive. This would lead to many administrators and academics having to leave education.

    That's why I think it would really have to be paired with something that would bring more immediate economic and job growth like maybe cutting regs and taxes on smaller businesses to soften the blow.

    Research might be hurt, but I'll take that over continuing to create millions of loan slaves.
    This is where I do not agree. I'm not conservative so this is not a surprise. I'm not going to get into debating idologies here, but it's a simple matter of funding. The smaller a field is, the less funding it gets, and the size of an institution will effect that. This is why I said this would have to be carefully done. I don't have the answer as to how, I just know it needs to be done well. I do think it is a problem that could be avoided, and it needs to be. A hit to research in a severe of a manner as this could do would have very long lasting implications. I work in academia and am quite familiar with it.
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  6. #16
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    US needs more fiscal responsibility, not less. But, as long as the election is won, who cares?

  7. #17
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It's an interesting thought.

    I don't see it actually getting any traction, though.

    Two sectors of the economy with the highest annual inflation over the last 30 yrs: Education and Healthcare...

    Annual inflation in these sectors over the last 30 years was 6%-7%, as opposed to 2%-3% for the rest of the economy...

    And two sectors where the federal government just HAPPENS to underwrite a MASSIVE amount of the spending that takes place...

    People really don't seem to understand how much this inflation has to do with the federal government's infinite checkbook massively subsidizing these sectors.
    @Zarathustra --

    That, and layers and layers of bureaucracy.
    Thunderous applause.
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  8. #18
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    @Zarathustra --

    That, and layers and layers of bureaucracy.
    Thunderous applause.
    "If a sufficient number of management layers are superimposed on top of each other, it can be assured that disaster is not left to chance." - Norm Augustine
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  9. #19
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    "If a sufficient number of management layers are superimposed on top of each other, it can be assured that disaster is not left to chance." - Norm Augustine
    @SD45T-2 :
    Jerry Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy:
    http://ace.mu.nu/archives/337769.php
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  10. #20
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    You didn't really read the article, did you?
    Well, I didn't, but now I did. And my comment is still valid. Same as Hard's
    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    The biggest issue I see with this, is it's really a sudden lurch to do this all at once. Too much so. Those who are already out of the system would benefit the most, and those who are in the system, would likely get screwed. If all aid was canceled along with debt canceled. A huge number of individuals currently in college wouldn't be able to finish due to the inability to get loans.
    The article itself is horrible on many accounts. Let me quote few for you all:

    The first reason is the nature of the curriculum at too many modern universities, where there is likely to be a department of Feminist, Gender & Sexuality Studies, offering courses like Kings, Queens & Queers, or Cross-Dressing in 19th Century Literature (the latter, obviously, is a graduate course).
    There is no explanation here why it's obvious this is a problem. It's as if any studies regarding female rights, gay rights or gay culture is inheritably bad. Very offensive and uneducated opinion.

    The second reason is that the nature of work is changing. The theory is that information technology tends to make whatever is learned in college, if not the graduates themselves, less valuable. As any parent of a 12-year-old knows, you don’t need a college education to do complex tasks on a computer.
    Yes, I'd like to see a 12-year-old without a college education on software engineering designing a Facebook-sized server architecture. The nature of the work is changing, but it's the lower education jobs that are being replaced. High thinking and ideological occupations will be the last ones to go before we are overtaken by the robots.

    The third reason is that some people simply cannot profit from any college experience. We have to remember that, even in the fifth year of the reign of Obama, half of all students are below average. Many of them would profit from learning a useful trade far more than from spending years at a college.
    And this proposal doesn't fix this at all. The proposal aids the rich, not this group.

    The second problem is that student loans allowed colleges to raise their costs—to feather their nests at students’ expense. College costs have risen much faster than inflation. To take just one example, in 1966, tuition at the University of Southern California was $1,200 a year, which in today’s dollars would be $8,751.59. So how much does a year’s tuition cost today? $42,162!
    Now that is a real problem. Colleges should be forced to re-evaluate their expenses and offer education at much lower costs than they do today. $40k a year is a ridiculous amount of money to pay for an education. Even $4k a year is too much. You know what the right price would be? $0 a year! Why is the amount of wealth you have amassed BEFORE your education an entry requirement? Shouldn't you just instead pick the most suited and most motivated ones?
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