User Tag List

View Poll Results: Do you support the housing bailout legislation?

Voters
24. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    6 25.00%
  • No

    15 62.50%
  • Other (explain)

    3 12.50%
First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 65

Thread: Housing bailout

  1. #11
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    So there are no victims in this situation?
    If someone is a victim of fraud, then they can sue for damages. Fraudulent lenders should be prosecuted, as should individuals who filled out fraudulent loan applications. Otherwise, no. Being stupid or reckless does not entitle you to money from the government. Well, at least that's what I believe.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #12
    only bites when provoked
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    2,127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    But what if bailing them out saves the whole economy from taking a nose dive?
    It won't, or at least not due to this. Most of the excess in the real estate sector (from construction through banks) have already been dumped back into the pool and have needed to change sectors. Bailing out bad mortgages will not replace the lost jobs, it'll just line the pockets of those with a lot of money that were going to lose a little bit of it to this for making bad investment decisions. Mortgages do not support the economy and foreclosures do not negatively affect it, except in some specific localities. You might "lose" some of the massive "gain" in property value if a lot of people default close to you, but that's the worst it can do, and you shouldn't be supporting the economy with home equity loans to begin with.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    But what if bailing them out saves the whole economy from taking a nose dive?
    It will retard the recovery of the real estate market and put American taxpayers under a greater burden.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #14
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTj
    Posts
    6,243

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    People that takes loans they can't afford, and/or not understanding what was going on. They are stupid. Being stupid is not illegal and exploiting them is not illegal, at least not yet.
    "They are stupid"?

    So let me get this straight: If someone figures out how to take advantage of another person, then, we call that person "stupid" and say that they deserve what they get because of their lack of knowledge?

    That sounds rather socially Darwinistic to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    A bailout is a reward to those committing fraud and those that made high-risk investments. If you had a kid and they did something you consider wrong, do you give them candy and say "good job"? We can't guarantee every investment will always make money, either.

    No, our money should not go to them.
    You're avoiding my question.

    Lets try it again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    However, I would totally support legislation that punished loan originators for bad loans they originated (including them shouldering a portion of the defaulted loan value) and some method of punishing bad appraisers, since both were working together to defraud people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haight
    Hmm. . . so there are no victims, yet you state that people should be punished for "defrauding people."

    I'm confused. Aren't the defrauded people victims?
    I'll make this simple: How can someone that is "defrauded" not be a victim of fraud?
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  5. #15
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTj
    Posts
    6,243

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If someone is a victim of fraud, then they can sue for damages. Fraudulent lenders should be prosecuted, as should individuals how filled out fraudulent loan applications. Otherwise, no. Being stupid or reckless does not entitle you to money from the government. Well, at least that's what I believe.
    Yeah, you're scaring me a bit, I have to be honest.

    I agree with your first point, but I'm afraid the ability to sue has to do with ones ability to pay for lawyers, or just the basic fees for that matter. However, if one cannot make a house payment, my guess is that paying for a lawyer or court costs would be out of the question as well.

    To your second point, you and Wolf are discounting the instances of where folks actually believed they could make good on the loans, yet were "convinced" by people (and yes, more knowledgeable people) that this would be the case. Within the mindset that you are displaying, anyone that is more knowledgeable in any particular area has the right to take advantage of "stupid" people. But I'm here to tell you, we have laws against such activities and we will have laws protecting folks in the future from the very thing you are discussing in this thread.

    And if I was Wolf, I'd be careful. Because after we get rid of all the "stupid" people, we might decide to go after the short ones next.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  6. #16
    only bites when provoked
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    2,127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    I'll make this simple: How can someone that is "defrauded" not be a victim of fraud?
    It was more general than specific. The victims were many and difficult to nail down. It was not merely the person signing on the loan, who ranged from a criminal through idiot to somewhere between where the person had some hope/dream/target in mind, and there was no other choice. You can't really try a whole industry for their bad effects on everyone in this country.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    "They are stupid"?

    So let me get this straight: If someone figures out how to take advantage of another person, then, we call that person "stupid" and say that they deserve what they get because of their lack of knowledge?

    That sounds rather socially Darwinistic to me.
    Figures out how to take advantage of someone? Are you sure you're talking about the same thing? Taking advantage of someone through lies and deceit is fraud, and that's already illegal. If you're an honest lender and a borrower doesn't perform their due diligence before signing a loan worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, that's no one's fault but the borrowers. If you want to force lenders into more obligations regarding that issue, then loans are going to be more expensive. The people who lose out the most are the people who could barely afford loans in the first place. Regulations have financial consequences.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #18
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTj
    Posts
    6,243

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    It was more general than specific. The victims were many and difficult to nail down. It was not merely the person signing on the loan, who ranged from a criminal through idiot to somewhere between where the person had some hope/dream/target in mind, and there was no other choice. You can't really try a whole industry for their bad effects on everyone in this country.
    It cool man. . . I just wanted you to admit that there were victims in this credit debacle rather than simply calling people stupid after you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Nope, basically no victims (except the stupid, and theoretically dealing with stupid people is not a crime), unless you consider criminals victims.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  9. #19
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    To your second point, you and Wolf are discounting the instances of where folks actually believed they could make good on the loans, yet were "convinced" by people (and yes, more knowledgeable people) that this would be the case.
    That sounds like fraud to me.

    Within the mindset that you are displaying, anyone that is more knowledgeable in any particular area has the right to take advantage of "stupid" people. But I'm here to tell you, we have laws against such activities and we will have laws protecting folks in the future from the very thing you are discussing in this thread.
    I know we'll have new laws. Congress usually gives in to popular opinion, even if it is short-sighted. And those laws will make loans more expensive. Fewer people will be able to afford to buy houses.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #20
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    It cool man. . . I just wanted you to admit that there were victims in this credit debacle rather than simply calling people stupid after you said:
    I think the issue is how you define 'victim'.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

Similar Threads

  1. What type is House?
    By RansomedbyFire in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 1046
    Last Post: 11-23-2015, 07:15 PM
  2. Hogwarts Houses...
    By arcticangel02 in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 129
    Last Post: 07-24-2014, 11:22 PM
  3. House Bailout Vote Fails!
    By Oberon in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 194
    Last Post: 10-07-2008, 05:16 AM
  4. Housing market cartoons
    By darlets in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 10-03-2007, 11:05 PM
  5. Do you feel embarrassed by your friends house
    By Sona in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 97
    Last Post: 09-13-2007, 10:41 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO