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  1. #121
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LION4!5 View Post
    I think that either this government should collapse, or it should become more consistently oppressive, or it should become truly democratic. Right now it is none of those things. It's not logically consistent!
    I don't know, I feel pretty free here. I've lived in several countries.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  2. #122
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrderOfTheCaelifera View Post
    If & when a global food shortage effects the US, do you really think those in control plan to cooperate in order to ensure the survival of those Americans which are government dependent & unable to provide for themselves?
    I highly doubt that social workers will sit around a campfire warming Jiffy-pop & singing kumbaya with starving families that became enslaved to the government tit in exchange for their vote.
    History has shown that the poor will starve to death or be killed off by disease whereas individuals that are better prepared to survive anarchy have a much better rate of survival.
    No I don't delude myself into thinking many more people will cooperate and share if they are not forced to. I mean if there is such a scarcity that in order to feed anyone we will have to cooperatively operate means of food production. That would be extreme and of course many people would die first, but it could get to that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by OrderOfTheCaelifera View Post
    I thought charities were supposed to provide for social services? I don't want my tax dollars going to pay for social services unless I receive an itemized receipt depicting the dollar amount of my taxes which contributed towards social services & then I want to write that amount off as a charitable donation.
    I never agreed to support social services.

    Aren't religious organizations supposed to provide for social services?
    That's fair, but not an opinion I share. The problem with charities providing social services is that if those charities are affiliated with a religious organization then that religion will taint everything they are involved with, and they can discriminate against anyone they don't approve of. So they could be just as oppressive. So it's either be screwed by the government or conform to a religion. And sure private organizations could exist like Planned Parenthood, which could evolve into some kind of secular reproductive health organization, but more powerful organizations could still shut them down if they didn't approve of what they were doing. Which is happening right now. So either way no one is guaranteed anything.

  3. #123
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    This is so hilarious to read coming from a country that really has a high taxation and rather strict gun control laws.

    Here's some figures for you to read:

    % of taxation incomes compared to GDP:
    France 44.6%
    Finland 43.6%
    Norway 43.6%

    South Africa 26.9%
    United States 26.9%
    Kazakhstan 26.8%

    Murder rates per 100,000 population:
    Belarus 4.9
    United States 4.8
    Thailand 4.8

    Lebanon 2.2
    Finland 2.2
    Norway 2.2

    Firearm-related murder rates per 100,000:
    Costa Rica 4.6
    United States 3.60
    Uruguay 3.43

    Belgium 0.29
    Finland 0.26
    New Zealand 0.26

    So taxation in Finland is high, about 50% higher than in US (given that it seems to vary a great deal between the states and individuals), for example a gallon of gasoline costs about $8.80 in Finland (it's full of taxes). Gun control laws a very strict: You have to have a license to own a gun (includes an extensive background checks), it's not allowed to be carried in public and it has to be stored in a locked cabinet, disassembled. You only allowed to purchase semi-automatics. Most of the guns are for hunting or relics from the war. So yes, the right to bear arms has elevated your countries amongst such great nations as Costa Rica and Uruguay, while we have to mangle with the likes of Kiwi and the Belgians.

    As for the taxation is theft claim: It is a philosophical issue. Yes, you do not have an opt-out for government/taxation. If you do not pay, you'll be forced to pay or suffer. Therefore it can be seen as mugging, extortion and robbery. On the other hand, it is the government that issues you mandate over the property. And defines laws. If there are no laws or government, the concept of theft would not exist. It is the framework that is government which protects your rights to work, earn and spend money. Therefore I'd say "Taxation is theft" claim is not invalid, but also not valid. It's irrelevant.

    Benevolent society is far better than individualism. Countries with high taxation are actually far more free than countries with moderate taxation (nordics, Netherlands and New Zealand constantly top any given social meter). "Right to bear arms" is a silly remnant of history, please get rid of it and join us in the 21th century.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  4. #124
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    This is so hilarious to read coming from a country that really has a high taxation and rather strict gun control laws.

    Here's some figures for you to read:

    % of taxation incomes compared to GDP:
    France 44.6%
    Finland 43.6%
    Norway 43.6%

    South Africa 26.9%
    United States 26.9%
    Kazakhstan 26.8%

    Murder rates per 100,000 population:
    Belarus 4.9
    United States 4.8
    Thailand 4.8

    Lebanon 2.2
    Finland 2.2
    Norway 2.2

    Firearm-related murder rates per 100,000:
    Costa Rica 4.6
    United States 3.60
    Uruguay 3.43

    Belgium 0.29
    Finland 0.26
    New Zealand 0.26

    So taxation in Finland is high, about 50% higher than in US (given that it seems to vary a great deal between the states and individuals), for example a gallon of gasoline costs about $8.80 in Finland (it's full of taxes). Gun control laws a very strict: You have to have a license to own a gun, it's now allowed to be carried in public and it has to be stored in a locked cabinet, disassembled. You only allowed to purchase semi-automatics. Most of the guns are for hunting or relics from the war. So yes, the right to bear arms has elevated your countries amongst such great nations as Costa Rica and Uruguay, while we have to mangle with the likes of Kiwi and the Belgians.

    As for the taxation is theft claim: It is a philosophical issue. Yes, you do not have an opt-out for government/taxation. If you do not pay, you'll be forced to pay or suffer. Therefore it can be seen as mugging, extortion and robbery. On the other hand, it is the government that issues you mandate over the property. And defines laws. If there are no laws or government, the concept of theft would not exist. It is the framework that is government which protects your rights to work, earn and spend money. Therefore I'd say "Taxation is theft" claim is not invalid, but also not valid. It's irrelevant.

    Benevolent society is far better than individualism. Countries with high taxation are actually far more free than countries with moderate taxation (nordics, Netherlands and New Zealand constantly top any given social meter). "Right to bear arms" is a silly remnant of history, please get rid of it and join us in the 21th century.
    Daaaammmmnn, Finland thieves 43.6% of yo shit?? What a bunch of Tyrant mugging jerks.

    I bet the Finnish government spends it all on Finnish blow and HIM concerts too.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  5. #125
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    I'd like to see married gay couples with closets full of assault rifles. Serious.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #126
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    So had powered flight, computers, and many other things worth doing.

    Not sure what relevance this has.
    Short of a military coup, I think success is even less likely than it was during the Civil War. The government can better track purchases and communications and the military/civilian weapon tech difference is even larger now than it was then. And we have a large, militarized police force.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #127
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Short of a military coup, I think success is even less likely than it was during the Civil War. The government can better track purchases and communications and the military/civilian weapon tech difference is even larger now than it was then. And we have a large, militarized police force.
    A few decades ago, the world had two superpowers.

    The US... and the USSR.

    Then the drunken mayor of Moscow climbed onto a battle tank, and shook his fist at the Politburo... and there was one.

    Just like that.

    Things change. Sometimes very quickly. Often for unexpected reasons.

  8. #128
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrderOfTheCaelifera View Post
    "We The People" refers to the citizens of the US. If the government doesn't exist to serve it's citizens then WTF do we need government for?
    According to Hobbes, we need government to prevent humans from preying on each other. This is a form of service, but it incorrectly supposes that the state S which tries to solve problems between person A and person B, is really better than A and B to begin with. According to the statism of Adolf Hitler, the state justified ideological causes.

    So why do we need the government? I wonder myself.

  9. #129
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrderOfTheCaelifera View Post
    Then maybe it's time for a different approach, because when government declares the US Constitution void they're going to trigger untold numbers of Americans to take up arms against the government.
    The government will never declare the Constitution void. That would be stupid. They don't say it. They do it while saying they are not doing it and doing it to that other guy over there.

    The Fourth Amendment has been ignored since 9/11, if not before that. It's not just internet and phone stuff. Blacks and Latinos, especially men, are subject to searches in large cities all the time just for walking down the street. They have been subject to searches for driving all across the country for ages.

    We have the right to freedom, but have incarcerated more people than any other country in the world and made it a for-profit industry. Whether or not one is likely to be imprisoned has more to do with race and economic status than evidence, etc.

    We've also seen that we do not have the right to peaceably assemble. That will get you pepper sprayed in the face.

    So far, nothing.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #130
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    A few decades ago, the world had two superpowers.

    The US... and the USSR.

    Then the drunken mayor of Moscow climbed onto a battle tank, and shook his fist at the Politburo... and there was one.

    Just like that.

    Things change. Sometimes very quickly. Often for unexpected reasons.
    I think our propaganda machine is way too effective for that to happen here. It's getting more effective and more concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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