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  1. #81
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe
    They want to be treated like people when it comes to contributing money to political campaigns, then let them pay taxes like people.
    This might seem counter-intuitive, but lowering taxes actually increases tax revenue because you are growing the economy and the tax base. Real federal tax revenues grew by 24% after Reagan's tax cuts.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  2. #82
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    This might seem counter-intuitive, but lowering taxes actually increases tax revenue because you are growing the economy and the tax base. Real federal tax revenues grew by 24% after Reagan's tax cuts.
    Have you looked at historic corporate tax rates in this country since, say, the 1920s?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #83
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    Of course they will charge what the market will bear.

    And the market will bear less as production costs drop, and competition ensues over market share.

    Are you seriously contesting the idea that lower production costs lead to lower prices for goods?

    Seriously?
    I am saying in *most* cases the share of the cost of goods and services due to taxes isn't large enough to justify further reduction of the tax burden of corporations. I believe, rather than reducing prices or increasing the wages of most workers, most of the saved costs would simply go into the pockets of the already very wealthy, who generally pay a lower income tax rate because their income is largely interest income which is taxed at a lower rate than that of wages earned through work.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    They pay a larger share of their income in payroll and sales tax.
    Yes I understand math. This doesn't make up for the fact of paying no income tax.

  5. #85
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    I believe, rather than reducing prices or increasing the wages of most workers, most of the saved costs would simply go into the pockets of the already very wealthy,
    If what you say is true, it should be easy to test.

    So in situations like personal computers then, where computers cost many thousands of of dollars in 1980 to purchase, and production costs were drastically reduced by volume manufacturing, the market wouldn't adjust to pass those savings along to consumers through competition...

    So do computers cost comparatively more or less than in 1980?

    How about cell phones? Technology improvement and volume manufacturing have made the price of cell phones increase? Or have they gotten cheaper while getting more powerful?

    Maybe you're not quite as in tune with the workings of market economics as you think.

  6. #86
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe
    Have you looked at historic corporate tax rates in this country since, say, the 1920s?
    Yes, of course. Hasn't everyone? While the corporate tax rate is important, the capital gains and the income tax rates are also important.

    Here's what JFK had to say about high taxes:

    "An economy constrained by high tax rates will never produce enough revenue to balance the budget, just as it will never create enough jobs or enough profits."
    Every time we've had major tax cuts, we've seen job growth and economic growth. JFK's tax cuts are credited with adding $25 billion to the GNP in just one year.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  7. #87
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Yes, of course. Hasn't everyone? While the corporate tax rate is important, the capital gains and the income tax rates are also important.

    Here's what JFK had to say about high taxes:



    Every time we've had major tax cuts, we've seen job growth and economic growth. JFK's tax cuts are credited with adding $25 billion to the GNP in just one year.
    Corporate tax rates have been dropping since Reagan and the GDP has been rising, but the share of tax revenue from corporate taxes has been falling not increasing. Wages have been stagnant or falling as a percentage of the GDP since Reagan, economic inequality has been growing, and poverty has been growing.

    IOW, these policies are not benefiting most Americans.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #88
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    If what you say is true, it should be easy to test.

    So in situations like personal computers then, where computers cost many thousands of of dollars in 1980 to purchase, and production costs were drastically reduced by volume manufacturing, the market wouldn't adjust to pass those savings along to consumers through competition...

    So do computers cost comparatively more or less than in 1980?

    How about cell phones? Technology improvement and volume manufacturing have made the price of cell phones increase? Or have they gotten cheaper while getting more powerful?

    Maybe you're not quite as in tune with the workings of market economics as you think.
    Well that would require me thinking I know a damn thing about the workings of market economics. That would be a little uppity for illegitimate trailer trash like me.

    What I know is that economic inequality and poverty are growing in this country. Yes, poor people often have cell phones. Yay. They can't afford keep their heat on in the winter or go to the doctor, but they can afford to text. IOW, the cost of non-essentials does not greatly impact the quality of life for people who are living paycheck to paycheck. The cost of food, shelter, fuel, and medical care do. Those things have not gotten cheaper. We subsidize farmers and we subsidize the oil, natural gas, and coal industries. The prices for those things have not gone down.

    We have been reducing corporate taxes since Reagan and the economic situation for most Americans has gotten worse, not better. Throwing cheap toys at people is nice and all, but it's only a distraction.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #89
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Well that would require me thinking I know a damn thing about the workings of market economics. That would be a little uppity for illegitimate trailer trash like me.
    I dunno. You strike me as pretty bright. And if I can master the concept as a High School dropout, you can certainly master the concept.

    What I know is that economic inequality and poverty are growing in this country.
    On this we certainly agree.

    I think the difference in our opinions is primarily on why.

    I submit that government is the cause. You appear to suggest that it is the cure.

  10. #90
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    I dunno. You strike me as pretty bright. And if I can master the concept as a High School dropout, you can certainly master the concept.



    On this we certainly agree.

    I think the difference in our opinions is primarily on why.

    I submit that government is the cause. You appear to suggest that it is the cure.
    I think if the government is the cause it is because it is owned by the corporations. The corporations are not going to behave themselves unless they are forced to and no one is going to force them to until the government belongs to the people again. That will require, as a first step, campaign finance reform.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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