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  1. #61
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    You do know that different businesses have different profit margins right?

    That other cashier gets paid less because that's as much as they can afford to pay.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My situation is pretty average for an American family. Healthcare, shelter, food, and fuel hit us pretty hard. Taxes, though unpleasant, aren't making or breaking us.
    Define average

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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Define average
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #64
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My situation is pretty average for an American family. Healthcare, shelter, food, and fuel hit us pretty hard. Taxes, though unpleasant, aren't making or breaking us.
    I don't think you understand the degree to which taxation is impacting your economic life.

    Not only are you taxed, but so are the people who make the goods that you purchase. So too are the people that provide the services that you purchase. So are the fuels that deliver the goods and services that you purchase.

    And so too are the people and companies that provide the things to the manufacturers.. etc...

    The result is easily a 100% increase in the purchase price of everything that you spend a dollar on.

    Imagine the change to your purchasing power, if everything you bought wasn't burdened with that cost.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Taxes should be higher on you.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Taxes should be higher on you.
    Me personally or most Americans?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    I don't think you understand the degree to which taxation is impacting your economic life.

    Not only are you taxed, but so are the people who make the goods that you purchase. So too are the people that provide the services that you purchase. So are the fuels that deliver the goods and services that you purchase.

    And so too are the people and companies that provide the things to the manufacturers.. etc...

    The result is easily a 100% increase in the purchase price of everything that you spend a dollar on.

    Imagine the change to your purchasing power, if everything you bought wasn't burdened with that cost.
    The people who make the shit I buy are not charging me the prices they are because they are barely breaking even. They are generally highly profitable and would be highly profitable if they paid more in taxes and paid a living wage.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    You keep saying this as if there is some kind of grand formula that determines "proper" salary.

    A job is a contract between two parties. If the salary is mutually satisfactory to both parties, then it is "proper".
    There is when the same exact store location is paying men $8.00/hr and women and minorities $7.25/hr. And it was within current peoples' lifetimes that that was going on, and it is argued that it is still going on. And how do we know this is going to stop going on without a report of some sort? We don't. And we lack the history of reports showing it. All we have is the IRS tax statements which are reflecting arbitrary statistics on the matter.

    Just as it is in your interest to seek the highest wages, it is in the employer's interest to seek the lowest wages. He is trying to maximize his cost/benefit equation, just like you are. You seem to be unaware or dismissive of this part of the equation. If you can talk him into $10, and he is satisfied with that, then $10 is proper. If he can talk you into $9, and you are satisfied with that, then $9 is proper.
    And I'm saying that if $10/hr is proper, then it ought to be proper for every employee at that store. There should never be a situation where the guy next to you, doing the exact same work as you the same hours a day, is getting paid less than you because you bothered to ask a question. People don't know how big business works--if they did, they'd probably be in business instead of working for one. Taking advantage of a lack of education and knowledge deficit would be solved if the employees had a resource to go to. $9 is only proper if that's what they're paying the other assistant managers. As it turned out, they weren't, but if the guy hadn't fucked up, how would I have ever known that? And by the time I went through the legal system to get my money I was suppose to be paid, I'd have spent more time and money arguing for it. And thus, the business wins, and continues to treat workers like disposable garbage.

    Barbaric? To offer someone employment? It would seem goodness to me.
    Oh yes, let's all be blessed by the kind big businesses that bother to take time out of their busy schedules collecting money to help out the poor. Please. Just because they want to work doesn't mean they are subject to being treated like garbage.

    If you feed the hungry with poisoned food, it isn't really being that kind. Why half-ass things? If you wouldn't wish it on yourself, why put it on others? Because in the end, big businesses don't give a fuck about their employees. And that's really the bottom line. You can say all you want "Oh, just negotiate if you want a living wage. Just accept that you should be paid whatever you deem necessary." But that's the words of someone who's probably never struggled to put food on the table. Because everyone who has struggled is 1. Grateful there are government programs like welfare and food stamps. and 2. Frustrated that businesses make more than enough money to profit, grow, and still pay their employees higher wages to live off of--but instead choose to take all of that money for themselves.

    Like. I said. Before. The concept of business vs government is a separate topic. It doesn't apply here. This is socioeconomics. I'm not going to argue outside of that scope here. Because the topic bores the fuck out of me. And this topic bored me when I entered it.

    You are likely too young to remember good economic times, but there was a time in this country when the most "common jobs out there" were factory workers, and tradesmen, and people who started their own service business. Those days are disappearing, and those jobs are being replaced by waitresses, and cashiers, and stockers for Megacorp. This is a direct consequence of the government intervention you seem to be advocating.
    There's that haughty attitude again. "You likely don't remember this.." as if age makes you more qualified to comment. If that's the case, then the 40 year old hobo that smokes crack up the block is more apt to discuss government policies with you than I am, you should be trying to message him.

    People are moving away from America because they don't want to pay employees $8/hr when they can pay a chinese person $2/hr. That isn't the government being shitty. That's the companies being cheap. There are LOT of shitty things on both sides of that equation, that's outside of the realm of this OP.

    The FDA. They exist to make our food and drugs safe. That is their purpose. Yet this enormous bureacracy does absolutely nothing to enhance food or drug safety. People still get sick from bacterial infections from eating contaminated food. People still get sick from medicines that have been "approved" by the FDA and then have to be recalled because they were dangerous. And all the while the FDA prevents people from voluntarily choosing experimental treatment methods for horrible diseases because they are not "approved". The advancement of medicine has been set back by decades because of the existence of the FDA.
    You mean because they aren't allowed to test medications on just anyone anymore without telling them what it is? Or they cannot just treat mental hospital patients like guinea pigs anymore? And you conveniently ignore literally all the information ever on the doctored up food we used to be given back in the day before regulations were in place. I acknowledged it is inefficient and doesn't work smoothly like I'd like it to. but that doesn't mean it's a garbage system we're "wasting" our money on.

    Tell me. What would keep our food fresh, and not toxic to our bodies, if the FDA went away? What magic system comes into play with a free market that creates a Utopia of flourishing economics, and people getting paid lots of money and getting the best of the best? We had that before. And companies took advantage of employees, and workers, and the consumers. They worked people to death for nearly nothing, got fat off of their salaries to do nothing, and poisoned thousands of people for generations.

    It isn't vague protection. It is REAL protection that happens all the time from a system that not too long ago was so appalling that other countries still study it in their history books to this day.

    I'm here to challenge your way of thinking. Maybe what you think you know about government and its wonderful impact on your life... isn't so.
    If you think I just looove our perfect little government, despite probably multiple claims that I think it's ineffective and needs serious reform, then why am I bothering to waste my time? Read what you want to read, and move on. I'm done discussing things with you. I mentioned already my stance on the government, I'm not going to KEEP repeating it just because you want to interpret what you want to see. If you want me to be a young, idealistic fool that loves our government, then I'm going to be that no matter what I say from here on out. And you've literally made that apparent in your last two posts.

    You're not my mentor. You aren't here, holding my hand, guiding me down a path of enlightenment from a dark age of time and thought. Get off my nuts. I'm done replying to you.

    I'm saying this.. and it is unfettered truth.
    And I said if you think a free market will create a better atmosphere, then you clearly give exactly zero shits about history, and in which case I have nothing to say to you. And clearly you have nothing constructive to say to me. So. We're. Done.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The people who make the shit I buy are not charging me the prices they are because they are barely breaking even. They are generally highly profitable and would be highly profitable if they paid more in taxes and paid a living wage.
    Of course they are making a profit.

    They are making that profit in addition to the tax cost burden that they carry.

    In the absence of that tax cost burden, their goods would be much less expensive when sold.

    Surely you can concede this truth.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Me personally or most Americans?
    On the 47% that basically pay no income taxes. Of course you prefer raising taxes, when the only taxes being raised are other peoples.

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