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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Then there is zero reason not to make a law ensuring equal pay for equal work. Nothing will change or men will be protected in the future, should they (continue to?) lose ground to women in the workplace.

    For me, the problem is more the cultural norm that women take off work to care for kids effecting parents in the workplace. All of the children whose mothers apparently desire to take career hits so they can parent also have a male biological parent. The male parent has no expectation and very little allowance to take time off for parenting responsibilities. Men can be parents without it being a conflict with their career. Women still have to choose which they are going to neglect. Men that want to take off to stay with their sick child, etc are often all but scoffed at.

    This is not fair to either men or women.

    Another problem is that women are not as frequently promoted to higher positions in their fields. Some of this is due to sexism and some is due to parenting responsibilities. As long as women are under-represented in leadership roles, a lot of this stuff isn't going to be addressed. Even after, for awhile, really.
    Its a waste of legislative time and money. It's a waste of the resources required to enforce.

    It's an attitude of, what can one more law hurt, that raises our taxes at every turn.

  2. #52
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Its a waste of legislative time and money. It's a waste of the resources required to enforce.

    It's an attitude of, what can one more law hurt, that raises our taxes at every turn.
    Taxes are the least of most people's problems.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #53
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Its a waste of legislative time and money. It's a waste of the resources required to enforce.

    It's an attitude of, what can one more law hurt, that raises our taxes at every turn.
    In fact, it'd be quite simple to enforce with my proposal. There are currently all the laws in place--what qualifies full time work, what the employee was given position-wise at the start (full or part time), the status of the employee in the company, and the minimum wage required to be paid.

    If companies simply compiled reports of what they pay their cashiers, and made them available to be seen by employees, employees would do most of the leg work themselves--reporting discrepancies, and such. There wouldn't need to be many people going around regulating things.. employees want to be paid for their work. And being able to report something with confidence, it wouldn't take much effort or tax dollars for an official to say "Hey, we're auditing the pay stubs of this entire store and comparing them to what you posted." We already have regulatory system for auditing companies in place, so it isn't much extra out of tax dollars.

    And considering a middle school kid saved the government $400million or something insane a year with *ink*, I'd like to think that the government isn't overly frugal about saving money.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    In fact, it'd be quite simple to enforce with my proposal. There are currently all the laws in place--what qualifies full time work, what the employee was given position-wise at the start (full or part time), the status of the employee in the company, and the minimum wage required to be paid.

    If companies simply compiled reports of what they pay their cashiers, and made them available to be seen by employees, employees would do most of the leg work themselves--reporting discrepancies, and such. There wouldn't need to be many people going around regulating things.. employees want to be paid for their work. And being able to report something with confidence, it wouldn't take much effort or tax dollars for an official to say "Hey, we're auditing the pay stubs of this entire store and comparing them to what you posted." We already have regulatory system for auditing companies in place, so it isn't much extra out of tax dollars.
    It's a solution looking for a problem.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Taxes are the least of most people's problems.
    Maybe the least of your concerns. You are not most people.

  6. #56
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It's a solution looking for a problem.
    It's a solution solving a well-documented problem. Not just for women either. There are still tons of incidents where men and women are denied work hours, or pay, because they simply don't know that the store across the street in the same damn company is paying their cashiers $0.50 more. It's a deficit of knowledge, which is a problem.. it isn't looking for one. Like I said in my previous post, there are women who are still working to retire that started their careers out with men openly being paid $1+ more than them for being men. There is no history. We just have shitty statistics that no one likes or wants to believe. Reporting the actual wages is cold hard evidence, and it doesn't matter how tightly wound up a feminazi is or how conservative a dude is.. X is what everyone is getting paid, they were audited last week, it lines up, end of the fucking story.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It's a solution solving a well-documented problem. Not just for women either. There are still tons of incidents where men and women are denied work hours, or pay, because they simply don't know that the store across the street in the same damn company is paying their cashiers $0.50 more. It's a deficit of knowledge, which is a problem.. it isn't looking for one. Like I said in my previous post, there are women who are still working to retire that started their careers out with men openly being paid $1+ more than them for being men. There is no history. We just have shitty statistics that no one likes or wants to believe. Reporting the actual wages is cold hard evidence, and it doesn't matter how tightly wound up a feminazi is or how conservative a dude is.. X is what everyone is getting paid, they were audited last week, it lines up, end of the fucking story.
    Good luck overcoming the objections of literally every employer in the nation.

    It's on you to negotiate a wage that you feel your work is worth.

    Or if you really don't want to worry about it, you can do what I did and work in sales for commission.

    Then you really know what your work is worth.

  8. #58
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    This is a bit out of scope though, don't you think? When you're talking to an employer, you might think you're getting a proper salary and pay.
    You keep saying this as if there is some kind of grand formula that determines "proper" salary.

    A job is a contract between two parties. If the salary is mutually satisfactory to both parties, then it is "proper".


    I literally had an employer flip the script on me in 10 minutes--saying $10 an hour, then $9 an hour for the exact same job in the exact same company but 10 minutes down the road at a different location. When I argued with him for a while, I got the $10 pay. If he had mentioned $9 off the bat, I would have never known that he intended on paying assistant managers $10 a hour.
    Just as it is in your interest to seek the highest wages, it is in the employer's interest to seek the lowest wages. He is trying to maximize his cost/benefit equation, just like you are. You seem to be unaware or dismissive of this part of the equation. If you can talk him into $10, and he is satisfied with that, then $10 is proper. If he can talk you into $9, and you are satisfied with that, then $9 is proper.


    And I'm saying that that is the problem. There is no resource any employee can go to to see if their particular store, or branch, or boss is stiffing them out of benefits and pay and hours. They can go to HR--which is within the company, but you have to hope it's a good HR branch. And if you work at Walmart, one of the biggest job suppliers in the country, good luck. The bigger picture is, if the employee wants the job.. many times, they won't make much noise about things, no matter what their gender or pay is.
    I really don't understand your thinking here. You seem to be suggesting that there is some objective means by which fair compensation can be applied universally to all jobs, locations, performances, experience and circumstances. Economics is complex. A store in a rural location with a smaller customer base may not as profitable as a store with a better retail location. The labor pool may be smaller in one location than another. Government pressures may differ.

    In short, there is no magic universal definition of "fair" (other than mutual satisfaction between employer and employee.)


    It's still barbaric for a developed country to take advantage of hungry people that are on the edge of collapse and know it. If you're taking a minimum wage job, it's because you have nothing else and you need it. That doesn't mean you can deny them promotional opportunities, and leave them in the dark about what others around them are getting paid, just because of their motivations. There ought to be an unbiased baseline. Something straight, and forward.
    Barbaric? To offer someone employment? It would seem goodness to me.

    Not all jobs are skilled. Not all jobs have promotional opportunities. Employers cannot afford to pay people highly skilled wages for jobs that require minimal skill. If someone wishes to advance beyond minimal wages, the morally justifiable means of changing their circumstances is to develop skills that people will pay more money for. What is not morally justifiable is to demand that an employer pay more than he is willing to. Or to employ government force to back up that demand with guns.


    You're saying people ought to be compensated for their performance. I agree. But the average job does not do that with quick promotions and bonus incentives outside of sales jobs. Most people get that promotion via slow grind, and effort, and time. And it doesn't matter how outstanding of an employee they are, sometimes they have to wait for seniority. And those people are absolutely necessary in the work force still. I'm thinking of the most common jobs out there--waitresses, cashiers, stockers.. the people that supply and function everything you touch in your daily life outside of work at the biggest companies in the country. I'm thinking something as simple as reporting what they pay everyone in a particular state and area is an easy, effective way of eliminating this "Do women get paid less" issue. If the bigger businesses aren't doing it, chances are the smaller businesses aren't either.
    You are likely too young to remember good economic times, but there was a time in this country when the most "common jobs out there" were factory workers, and tradesmen, and people who started their own service business. Those days are disappearing, and those jobs are being replaced by waitresses, and cashiers, and stockers for Megacorp. This is a direct consequence of the government intervention you seem to be advocating.

    I know you believe otherwise because you're an idealist.. but when government intervenes in these situations, the people who are harmed, are those that government is pretending to help.


    Ooohh, getting all super intellectual on me. :c poor me, how am I ever suppose to prove that a government agency does its job to the extent that it protects its citizens? The truth is, if you don't want to see something, you won't. There is loads and loads of history, text, research, and foundations of government agencies like the people that protect and create national parks and the food and drug administration that do important work and have people that vibrantly and genuinely care about their roles. OSHA, the FDA, the FDIC.. those are all there to protect citizens. The government gets a lot of shit wrong--and those things are not perfect--but they are there to protect citizens, and even with their existence we're still fighting an uphill battle about what is poisonous to us or not. That doesn't mean the government agency is total garbage though just because it isn't perfect.
    OSHA, FDA, FDIC, and most other federal interventionist agencies cause far more harm, and far more economic damage than they could ever provide in benefit. The cost of everything you buy is burdened with paying for these things, and the benefit they provide is nearly-nonexistent. Let's choose one that most people consider the most beneficial. The FDA. They exist to make our food and drugs safe. That is their purpose. Yet this enormous bureacracy does absolutely nothing to enhance food or drug safety. People still get sick from bacterial infections from eating contaminated food. People still get sick from medicines that have been "approved" by the FDA and then have to be recalled because they were dangerous. And all the while the FDA prevents people from voluntarily choosing experimental treatment methods for horrible diseases because they are not "approved". The advancement of medicine has been set back by decades because of the existence of the FDA.

    But people go merrily about their business because they don't have any real idea what the FDA is, or what it does. They have a vague sense that it is supposed to protect them. And protection is "good", so they must be "for it".

    I'm here to challenge your way of thinking. Maybe what you think you know about government and its wonderful impact on your life... isn't so.

    Red pill... or blue pill?


    If you're saying that if the government stopped protecting citizens that businesses would protect citizens just as much if not better.. I'm going to say you're full of shit and we have nothing more to discuss here because time and time again businesses have failed to protect their employees without government standards and regulations being required to be upheld.
    I'm saying this.. and it is unfettered truth.

    In a truly free market... without regulatory burden... without ridiculous levels of taxation... that there would be such an overwhelming explosion of economic activity in this country that EVERYONE at every level of the economic spectrum would benefit.

    Manufacturing businesses would be forced to compete for labor. Wages would rise. Employees could choose for themselves the level of risk they were willing to expose themselves to and the level of compensation appropriate to the risk, without government making the decision for you (as if you're too stupid to decide for yourself).

    Manufacturing wages would be spent on new things, and food, and housing, causing increased demand for labor in these economic sectors. And the obvious benefits that go with that increased demand.

    If you want real and beneficial change.. stop looking to government. It has nothing to offer in that regard.

  9. #59
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Maybe the least of your concerns. You are not most people.
    My situation is pretty average for an American family. Healthcare, shelter, food, and fuel hit us pretty hard. Taxes, though unpleasant, aren't making or breaking us.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #60
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Good luck overcoming the objections of literally every employer in the nation.

    It's on you to negotiate a wage that you feel your work is worth.

    Or if you really don't have to worry about it, you can do what I did and work in sales for commission.

    Then you really know what your work is worth.
    My proposal is not to negotiate wages at all. It's simply for the businesses to report what they pay their employees. The wages don't change--that's on the companies, the employees, and the system. The proposal is just to say "We pay all of our cashiers minimum wage. Unless they've worked here for 1 year, then it's $0.50 more. Then after that it's another $0.50 2 years later. We start assistant managers all out at $9.00/hr, unless they've worked with the company over 3 years, when it's x." However they do their seniority/promotional system, they just make a report of what they pay their employees. The IRS can see on the taxes whether the place they're working at is paying them what they ought to be paid. If an employee is only paying on $10,000 worth of taxes, but the store is claiming they're getting paid $19,000's worth of taxes in that position.. that's revenue the company is holding back from the country, or revenue the employee is lying about. It could potentially make a lot of money for the government.

    So far as companies whining and bitching, they'll do that until the end of days. No one wanted OSHA regulations--those happened anyways. No one wanted inspections of their food products, and it happened anyways. The government isn't meant to answer to big business. I know that's not how it really works all the time.. but in the instance of fixing socioeconomical situations of disparity, the government ought to lead by example.

    There is no sense in saying "The country only pays women 77% of what they pay men" when the white house itself is not showing any proof that they're being any different or making simple strides. Statistics can be manipulated to suit anyone's needs. 77% is far too drastic--but what we won't know is cold hard facts until there is actual reports from actual wages being actively analyzed from every company.
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