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  1. #101
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I'm explaining why wages aren't higher. It's because businesses are being squeezed by government. If you lower taxes and eliminate a bunch of regulations, businesses can pay their workers a lot more money.
    My aim isn't to make wages higher at all though... I'm not proposing any sort of regulation on the current wage structure--my proposal is simply to compile accurate data based on actual pay vs proposed pay by companies (i.e. what they say they pay x position in x location) to see if they line up. It'd be easy, since we already pay for regulations and already have the actual pay data (aka the IRS) to go off of.
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  2. #102
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan
    What course of action do you (and @OWK) believe the US government should have taken instead of offering bailouts - 103% of which have been recouped by now; yes, the Treasury Department made a profit - to stabilize the financial system?
    Privatize Fannie/Freddie. Put limits on the leverage ratios (no more 30:1 or 100:1 ratios) of the investment banks.
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Privatize Fannie/Freddie.
    How and why would that have helped?

  4. #104
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan
    How and why would that have helped?
    Fannie/Freddie helped blow up the bubble by purchasing all the subprime mortgages from banks like Countrywide. They did this using taxpayer dollars. In effect, they were eliminating risk from the banks which allowed banks to make subprime loans with inpunity.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  5. #105
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    None.

    Stealing money from citizens to mitigate the gambling losses of bankers or manufacturers is immoral.

    It furthermore serves to remove the only natural deterrent to foolish and irresponsible decisions. (that being consequences)
    This is called moral hazard.
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  6. #106
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    This is called moral hazard.
    Feel free to elaborate.

  7. #107
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    Feel free to elaborate.
    I was just adding that moral hazard is the term for the dynamic you were describing; that rewarding and or removing the negative repercussions of a certain behavior means you will probably get more of that behavior.

    I suppose this is extra relevant to me because of the gubernatorial election. Jerry Brown is the incumbent and is expected to win. The main challengers are Tim Donnelly and Neel Kashkari. Right now leading up to the primary they are essentially fighting for second place.* Donnelly is a state legislator and a diehard Tea Party type. I tend to agree with him more often than not, but he's not very electable in California. Kashkari is young, a minority, and more moderate. He might have a fighting chance in the general election. He is a former Treasury Department official and oversaw TARP.



    *Here in California we have open primaries. That means that top two candidates from the primary go to the general election regardless of party. It hasn't always been that way. It was changed by ballot initiative a few years ago. I voted against it. The proponents of the initiative said it would get more moderates elected and make things less dysfunctional. In reality it means that in Senate and Assembly races voters in a lot of districts are forced to choose between either two conservative Republicans or two liberal Democrats in the general election. And in some of those cases one of the candidates will defer to the other due to having similar ideology and essentially drop out of the race, which leaves voters with no real choice at all.
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  8. #108
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    Thanks for the clarification.

    I had assumed you were alluding to the choice between bailout and banking customer loss potential as a moral hazard.

  9. #109
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    As far as I know, the State has prosecuted those whom it deemed had a chance of getting convicted, though I am completely out of the loop regarding the progress of these trials. And I am no lawyer. But mens rea is terribly difficult to prove in these situations, unless there is a veritably glowing, neon-green paper trail. There is a tremendous burden of proof if you want to make a single person or a small group of people criminally responsible for the actions of a huge corporation. These people must be afforded the same rights and protections as any regular citizen would, and it is unfortunate if truly guilty people walk free as a result of this. Be assured that many nations, such as Germany, are aware of this difficulty and have been criminalizing aspects of the risk-taking that led to the 2008 financial crisis so that individuals more easily can be held accountable.

    What do you mean by "real regulation"? Regulatory reforms have been enacted as a direct consequence of the Crisis. Do you have any concrete criticism of these reforms, or is "real regulation" just a buzzword of yours?
    It was supposedly regulated before, but if I understand correctly, there weren't enough people to do it properly and when anyone tried to address a problem, they were ignored. If this has changed, great. I think there is still a lot of too big to fail going on.

    That so little prosecution happened is pretty messed up. Poor people that commit fraud and get caught go to prison.
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  10. #110
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It was supposedly regulated before, but if I understand correctly, there weren't enough people to do it properly and when anyone tried to address a problem, they were ignored. If this has changed, great. I think there is still a lot of too big to fail going on.

    That so little prosecution happened is pretty messed up. Poor people that commit fraud and get caught go to prison.
    Amen to that! There will be another Wall Street theft, bigger than the last one. We have already seen deregulated banking practices continue resulting in fraudulent activity (Bank of America, Libor scandal in the UK, etc. etc.)...it seems by not prosecuting those guilty parties has made them all the more emboldened.
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