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  1. #21
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    Australian patriotism and American patriotism are different.

    Americans show their patriotism by displaying their flag wherever they go: in business and even in their front yard. Whereas Australians show our patriotism by refraining from displaying our flag day to day and reserving its display for formal occasions and formal institutions.

    So to Australians American patriotism looks shallow and even exploitative, while to Americans Australians seem unpatriotic and laconic.

    And while Americans allow the burning of the American flag, to burn the Australian flag would be a faux pas.

  2. #22
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrderOfTheCaelifera View Post
    Okay I see where this is headed but let's avoid the want to incessantly argue & instead consider a parallel situation because this is all about the inappropriate reaction of those oppressing freedom of speech.

    Just for shits & giggles, let's suppose that I were to stand outside a mosque & burn or otherwise desecrate a flag or other symbol while I was in the presence of individuals that held that symbol to be sacred. It's my right to do so isn't it?

    Let's further suppose that those people yelled at me or acted aggressively towards me. I'd still have the right to desecrate the symbol they hold sacred, to taunt them by repeatedly riding around the block while simultaneously desecrating their flag & expect not to be impeded.


    Because in my book that's taunting or inciting riotous behavior but your reasoning is that I'd be good to go & should expect no emotional reaction from those that hold the symbol to be sacred.

    LOL where did respect & common sense evaporate to?
    Rights go both ways. Just because you can yell fire doesn't mean there will be no repercussions for doing so . If you are doing it in a very provocative manner, than there will be repercussions of some sort.

    Actively taunting and inciting those behavior will bring repercussions, and I would expect the people doing them to face them. Just like parts of the Women's Suffrage Movement and the Civil Rights Movement. If you are picking a fight or trying to cause negative reaction (like Westboro,) expect a lot of hatred and other groups to not like you.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    The bill of rights is just paper, the flag is just cloth, they exist as symbols to a set ideals that help guide people to a better way of life. Once people start treating the symbols with more respect than the ideals they represent, they just become another kind of worthless dogma that controls us instead of liberates us.
    This is interesting in that there are a set of ideals to guide the American people. So America and the American people are ideological. By contrast Australia is not guided by a set of ideals but by history.

    So we might say Americans are ideological while Australians are traditional.

    So to Australians, Americans seem unmoored from reality, whereas, to Americans, Australians seem hide-bound by tradition.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Australian patriotism and American patriotism are different.

    Americans show their patriotism by displaying their flag wherever they go: in business and even in their front yard. Whereas Australians show our patriotism by refraining from displaying our flag day to day and reserving its display for formal occasions and formal institutions.

    So to Australians American patriotism looks shallow and even exploitative, while to Americans Australians seem unpatriotic and lethargic.

    And while Americans allow the burning of the American flag, to burn the Australian flag would be a faux pas.
    Well, also realize that Americans that put an American Flag on everything they can find, are also a little rednecky, and also a large chunk of the country. There's plenty of Americans that do not put "Power of Pride!!" bumper stickers on our cars.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Rights go both ways. Just because you can yell fire doesn't mean there will be no repercussions for doing so . If you are doing it in a very provocative manner, than there will be repercussions of some sort.

    Actively taunting and inciting those behavior will bring repercussions, and I would expect the people doing them to face them. Just like parts of the Women's Suffrage Movement and the Civil Rights Movement. If you are picking a fight or trying to cause negative reaction (like Westboro,) expect a lot of hatred and other groups to not like you.
    But as outrageous as Westboro is, no one has killed them. Whereas being inflammatory outside of a mosque, or simply drawing a cartoon of Muhammad, or making a documentary on Muslim women might cause riots in Muslim countries, and may VERY possibly get you stabbed to death, as in the case of Theo van Gogh where he was shot about 15 times, half those at point blank range, beheaded, and stabbed in the chest.
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  6. #26
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Australian patriotism and American patriotism are different.

    Americans show their patriotism by displaying their flag wherever they go: in business and even in their front yard. Whereas Australians show our patriotism by refraining from displaying our flag day to day and reserving its display for formal occasions and formal institutions.

    So to Australians American patriotism looks shallow and even exploitative, while to Americans Australians seem unpatriotic and lethargic.

    And while Americans allow the burning of the American flag, to burn the Australian flag would be a faux pas.
    Strangely enough, I don't own flags or have a bumper sticker of the American Flag. My family didn't even get that American Flag thing that was going on during 9/11 to paint a part of the driveway with the flag. We had little flags of events, but that is about it.

    Flag burning is protected under the constitution, no matter if it is socially awkward or not. Although there have been people trying to pass an amendment of some sort trying to prevent the "desecration" of the American flag, it is protected, whether it is for the socially awkward or not, and it needs to be kept that way.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Strangely enough, I don't own flags or have a bumper sticker of the American Flag. My family didn't even get that American Flag thing that was going on during 9/11 to paint a part of the driveway with the flag. We had little flags of events, but that is about it.

    Flag burning is protected under the constitution, no matter if it is socially awkward or not. Although there have been people trying to pass an amendment of some sort trying to prevent the "desecration" of the American flag, it is protected, whether it is for the socially awkward or not, and it needs to be kept that way.
    Of course you can burn the Australian flag if you wish, it's just that burning the Australian flag is not seen in Australia as a patriotic act, just as we don't see the promiscuous display of the flag as patriotic.

    So burning the flag in America has a different meaning than burning the flag in Australia.

  8. #28
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    There's a lot of videos of people lately going "Omg look what x veteran did to y citizen." .. I'm of a mind lately to think the media is trying to paint a very clear picture of veterans coming home from war being uncivilized assholes that are just primed for violence at every turn pike.

    So, with that said. Yeah, technically, those guys shouldn't have chased that guy down. They shouldn't have. I'm not.. actually upset at ALL that they did though. There are ways to protest that have nothing to do with the flag, or the symbols that people hold sacred. Martin Luther King, Ghandi, they all did great protests that didn't actually involve shitting all over anyone's anything. If you're protesting, I'd like to think it's because something someone somewhere is lacking respect and honor in their actions/decisions and you're trying to call them out on it. I'd also like to think you'd be doing that without being a complete douche about it.

    There's the idealism in that yes, freedom of speech means saying things how you want to say them without your rights being infringed upon. But the reality is you're only protected from the government. Not from people and their visceral reactions. Other laws protect you from that--like assault and battery charges. No one 'forced' that guy to drop the flag anymore than they forced him to fly it upside down. If you walk into my house, and start calling my mother a whore.. I don't care what the law says you're allowed to say, I'm kicking your ass all the way out of my damn house. That's the reality of it. Your words and actions have consequences.

    Should they have chased him down? Technically not.. am I surprised they did? No. Not at all. If they beat his ass, that'd be a different story.. if a bunch of them ganged up on one little dude.. yeah, that'd be a little fucked up. A couple guys doing basically the same thing that guy was doing--using inflammatory language and actions to illicit a response--I don't really see what the big deal is.. and I don't really care for the spin the media is trying to make on soldiers lately.. as if they didn't already have enough civilians treating them like garbage when they get back. (It's never going to be as bad as Vietnam again.. but it isn't exactly all sunshine and roses either for us.) If you're going to be an ass and do things you know will create negative emotions at least don't be such a puss that you drop and run the instant someone actually does react to you. Stand your ground at least. Or don't do something you don't think is worth the risk in the first place.
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  9. #29
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    @kyuuei That is why it goes both ways. Freedom of Speech doesn't mean you can say or do whatever you want without repercussions. But you can fly that flag upside-down or burn it if you want to, but that doesn't mean others will take it lightly as they have other ideas of what that flag mean.

    There are many people in history that have done outrageous things because the more peaceful means have not done anything. Some of them have advanced our society faster than the peaceful means have. Civil Rights and Martin Luther King did not occur until a century of pains and soul searching went through the African-American community (some say that they are still going through it.) Even the history lessons of Rosa Parks and Brown V. Board of Education didn't amount to much until people saw a kid (Emmet Till) get mutilated. Once people saw the kid get mutilated, that was when they said enough was enough. Women's Rights did not advance much for about half a century until the people decided to go for both legislation and creating a uproar across the states (they caused some riots.) That movement (along with the Progressive Movement) shitted on immigrants and alcohol all too well. Some say the Civil War was only part of the reason some of the amendments were passed, and we all knew how it turned out. Workers Rights did not occur for about half a century until workers decided to do wildcat strikes, unionizing, and the 8-hour workday(besides America fighting against communism and that they were also partly against immigration and were very much segregated unions.) I would even give Westboro some credit for advancing Gay Rights in America for their hatred and constant media attention actually made people more aware of their own biases against gay marriage (or at least not affiliate themselves with Westboros)

    Much of what we went through as a society is based on the sweat and tears of the many people proceeding us, and that includes military members. Veterans after World War II fought for the desegregation of the military which led to many of the things that brought upon the 50 and 60's. Even the Occupy Movement protected or even fought some brutality for harming a veteran (in Oakland.) Yet, people see that movement as some nebulous group of people.

    I know a lot of veterans (even a few of them close to home,) so I know better than to flame (most of) them (they are great, dependable, people.)

  10. #30
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    I'm a reglar 'ol civilian. Why is that?
    My dad just thinks blind patriotism is really stupid and most of the stuff our military does it stupid. He also refuses to wear any kind of logo because he's not a damn billboard. He went into the military because he was really poor and there wasn't much else for him to do after he got out of high school. He went into the Marines because the other recruiter was out to lunch or something when he and his buddy went to sign up. They did alright by him in terms of career but he's got health problems and, IMO, still suffers from PTSD due to his time in Viet Nam. He told me a some of 'the friendly fire' that happened was enlisted men ridding themselves of bad officers and that American soldiers, contrary to popular belief, commit war crimes.
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